Chat with George Lynn, M.A.
April 21, 2005 live chat with Author and Psychotherapist Mr. George Lynn
The Chat Topic: Parental Self-Care
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
We are pleased that George Lynn, a renowned author within our community of families that have children with bp has offered to do this chat for us.
Mr. Lynn is the author of the books “Survival Strategies for Parenting Children with ADHD” “Survival Strategies for Parenting Children with Bipolar Disorder “
and, George, I'm going to commit the ultimate faux pas and ask you to tell us the name of your newest book!
George Lynn
Genius! Nurturing the Spirit of the Wild, Odd, and Oppositional Child
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
Thanks George!
George Lynn
You bet..
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
So with that short introduction, I'm going to turn the floor over to you George for a bit, and then we'll start putting the questions to you!
George Lynn
Wendy, Thank you. I am happy to be here tonight. I have followed the good work of The Balanced Mind Foundation since the beginning and happy to talk about both the challenges and positives of kids with bd and how parents can be hardy in taking care of them.
Donna-The Balanced Mind Foundation
Mr. Lynn you speak often about making discipline affirm the golden rule and I have interpreted this as following through with natural consequences and having the child to make retribution - Many parents of children with BP will often say that when their child is unstable one can NOT hold them accountable or responsible for their behavior. What are your thoughts about this? If a child puts a hole in a wall should they still be expected to repair the hole
George Lynn
Yes. The child should be required to repair the hole but brain chemistry and timing is an important factor. If a child is in the middle of a bipolar episode, he is experiencing a medical issue... a seizure-like phenomenon that trumps anything but safety concerns and that should be the first order of business... I think too many experts assume that you can dialogue with a child at this time...essentially his thinking brain is turned off and his limbic system is on..
vickyg45
How does one do this when they say they do not remember doing it? Do we punish them for that?
George Lynn
I do not believe in punishment. I do believe in natural consequences. Often times they will not remember what they did. The challenge is to help them understand that though they have an impairment, they must, over time develop ways to control it..
Gigg(NY)
Sort of self preservation over rides the consequence at that moment?
George Lynn
Yes. The most important thing may be to get police or medical assistance at that moment.
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
One big thing we hear often is parents not being on the same page, especially when we consequence our children.
How would you advise parents to address that with the parent who does not believe that the behavior comes as part of the bp?
George Lynn
Parents need to do an inventory of all the ways that a child is dependent on them and pull back on what they do for the child as needed. He/She must get the idea that the world is not run by people going berserk..
George Lynn
You are talking about an ex..right?
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
Could be an ex.? Could also be the other parent who is in denial of their child's diagnosis?
George Lynn
The other parent, usually the father who says "he can stop the behavior if he tried."
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
exactly. it's usually a man thing
(apologies to any men in here)
George Lynn
Typically what happens is that the parent eventually will have to come to terms with the problem. bd does not get better if caregivers are dragging their feet.. The problem itself will shout for solution at some point..
Most of my clients who have this issue, eventually cry "uncle" and come around to the need for treatment, unfortunately, fathers seem to be able to walk away from their kids easier in this culture leaving the single mom to deal with it, the school district, the courts... Not all dads for sure.
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
What do you see has been the most helpful in getting the parent in denial to accept the diagnosis?
tamra523
I have wrap around services and they sometimes don’t agree with me about bad behavior how do I get them to see my point
George Lynn
Education, Listening, Accepting the person's viewpoint. Knowing that both parents typically are trying to do the right thing- I go slow with this, especially with dads. just talking and relating is very important. no one likes to be pushed.
George Lynn
Tamra, Would you hit me again with your question? What do you mean wrap around services?
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
wrap around services usually means in home therapy
tamra523
behavior specialist, mobile therapy,
George Lynn
Everyone thinks they are an expert on bd these days. I am heavy into good medical diagnosis and getting letters from doctors if this is needed that point out the dangers of laying the problem on the parents..
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
we hear this often, too George, where the professionals dealing with our child cannot even agree on the diagnosis
George Lynn
Once again, education is very important. and this takes time. Sometimes you have to be careful about who you bring into the picture..
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
which also helps the parent in denial with their particular case
George Lynn
Yes. There is a lot of confusion about the dx. Skilled interviewing of the child against significant factors and team explanation is sometimes useful.. Again, bd is a life-threatening issue. sometimes it does fall on the shoulders of one person, such as the mother, to save the day. This is why reaching out to the greater community of parents if vital...
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
Since we are on the subject of a diagnosis, we have many parents here who have their own medical conditions as well as possible bp themselves
George Lynn
yes..
rose
Hello Mr.Lynn, I have had the pleasure of attending one of your seminars, and enjoyed it. Have you noticed, or observed, any incidence of caregiver stress illnesses, such as MS, Lupus or other auto-immune disorders, among caregivers of kids with bipolar disorder?
George Lynn
I have noticed a greater level of chronic fatigue, of course depression. research does indicate a coexistence of many, many different medical issues with bd and the stress on parents is enormous.
Nancy (CA)~The Balanced Mind Foundation facilitator
What do you recommend to the parent who is in total burn out, cannot get respite and is suffering health consequences
George Lynn
One thing that is very important is to reach out for friends and professionals who can help the parent factor out all the problems and get some control over the most significant ones..though it may seem daunting, oftentimes there are solutions, even if they are drastic such as involving the child in the criminal justice system or structuring involuntary psychiatric treatment..
Burn out. Let’s talk about prevention for just a moment. Burn out is a result of losing control of the situation. It is the stress reaction gone to the end. To avoid it, parents must put three factors into their lives-purpose, freedom, and love. They must face their own limiting beliefs about how to do this and attack the problem knowing that (to quote Mary Oliver) “the only life they can save is their own”. Parenting a kid with bd burns through all the facade. All the make do. All the things adults do to try to please others.. It makes us get real about what we need and get selfish if we have to..
rose
what do you tell a parent who says they cannot do this one more day?
George Lynn
If that means sending the child to live with an not so good ex, that may be what needs to be done. If that means calling 911, that may have to be done; If that means making the school district pay for residential placement, that may have to be done; I have done two of these things myself with my own son and it saved my sanity.
rhoda
What do you mean by "facade and Make due" and what is getting real?
George Lynn
I work with them right there to get backup and usually, if we get real creative, we can find some respite, some how...
deb (CA)
The burning question in our home right now is trying to determine if an out of home placement is in order for our child. It is very much a parent care issue since the oppositionality and manipulation are grindingly hard on a marriage. How do you help parents make this decision?
George Lynn
Rhoda: Façade-you know, caring what the neighbors think...not calling 911 because it is shameful to see cop cars in your driveway...being nice to the school district when it may be time to get an attorney involved...this kind of thing.
First, I look to medication. If things are very dire, I work with parents to come up with ways to force the issue. Either by involving others in the community, or by instituting a draconian type of home environment…the fact is that having bd kids breaks up marriages and both parents have to accept this, stop blaming each other, and get into the problem solving mode..
They have to get their signals together. I talk a lot about this in my second book on parenting kids with bd, and in my first one on different strategies parents can do to bring back stability to their house…
Stability is the grail.
Stability heals parents and children. Sometimes, once the child’s issues are under control, issues between the parents that have been dormant for years surface..
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
I have your survival strategies book here, and would like to share the 6 Keys that you write about. Perhaps you can elaborate on that a little?
George Lynn
Thank you, Wendy: Do you want to list them or should I?
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
The first key is "build the relationship but do not tolerate abuse”
George Lynn
Yes, this means, in a nutshell, that you are always looking for ways to affirm the child and communicate in a non-hostile manner. Very matter of fact and it means that you can look him in the eye and say "kid, it’s you or me. If you hit your mom, you're gone." I call this lion-hearted love. Violence breeds violence. Parents make their own lives worse but letting any physical violence go by the way.
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
The second key is "surrender to the situation and see the misery behind their behavior”
George Lynn
Well, first, Wendy, are you referring to Genius!? That is not my second point there. However, to answer your question, that means that parents do not take it on or blame the child. They realize that he is probably doing the best that he can and they do not get into being a victim of the situation. They realize he is suffering and let him know that that does not give him the right to make the rest of the world suffer.
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
no this is in the back of the Survival Strategies for Parents of children with bipolar disorder
George Lynn
thanks.
George Lynn
give me the next one if you'd like.
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
The third key is "nurture every moment of observer perspective”
George Lynn
Yes, that means when the child does little things to acknowledge his part in a problem, affirm his strength, and call it. Make sure he knows you know. Observer perspective is another golden goal in a sense, that he is able to see his part..
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
the 4th key is to avoid endless argument “the spirit of consultancy must prevail”
this has been a big one in my house - learning when to walk away
BonJEsp
or how to walk away successfully
George Lynn
Yes, argument typically goes nowhere. Of course, be willing to negotiate, but if it is becoming a game, call it and walk. Consultancy means that you try to enroll the child in seeing his part in the problem and you give him choices about what to do..
George Lynn
Bonjesp, Yes, walking away is an art. Parents who can do it usually know their back up..
Bs Mom
I'm never sure how far or hard to push or insist. Left over from the days of the rages. So I encourage, but I’m afraid that I’m not encouraging enough.
George Lynn
They know that they are in control. Feeling out of control keeps nasty arguments going.
Meg
Out of the blue, my 12 yr old daughter will have an outburst and threaten to beat me up or something and raise her arm (but she usually stops herself). With this or anything else aggressive, I stay calm and ignore, walk away or what ever. This seems to make her madder (when I do not react). Sometimes she becomes aggressive and comes after me.
Kim
As a single parent I usually send my child to his room to "think about what he's done " then we talk about it . Sometimes he's not ready to talk but I try to anyway so he doesn't avoid the issue.
George Lynn
Meg, verbal attack is one thing; physical attack is where I draw the line in working with parents. I advise use of the '3 foot rule' which means that when things get heated no one touches anyone else. If she comes after you, the best thing to do is stand your ground and let her know that if she touches you, it is out of your hands. You will call for outside help. Once again, 911 as crude as it is, might have to be the lesson of the night..
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
Key #5 - Supplement medication with wellness strategies
George Lynn
Kim, thank you.
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
What wellness strategies have you found to be most helpful for parents to keep their own sanity? I personally have my own tdoc, pdoc and meds. Do you see this a lot?
George Lynn
Wendy, that means I follow Kay Jamison's lead in making sure that everyone gets enough sleep. It means eating right. It means going for regular walks and exercise. Working in the garden, doing anything that gives you a sense of control and enjoyment. It means being assertive and honest with others. Don’t mean to be preachy here but assertiveness is an essential survival skill for parents because so doing, they affirm their control of the situation. I do see parents with their own treatment professionals in their own lives.
Most of my parents are on SSRI's, whatever it takes to keep your cool and do, as one wise parent said, behave like they do in psychiatric hospitals. Be that detached if you have to…
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
and the 6th key - "let yourself grieve the loss of your illusion that your love is enough to make your child normal"
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
a couple of follow ups to the previous point about wellness
George Lynn
Yes, The grief process. I watch people go through it. I went through it myself when my son was in kindergarten and we first recruited an attorney to get him due process and when we realized he would not make it in the school system like other kids. This is about self-forgiveness.
DonnaOH
Physical activity and having outside interests - is essential - of course playing golf keep the mind and body balanced : )
George Lynn
yes! Donna. Golf gives you vista!
boutlaw
they also provide the modeling necessary for their children. Taking care of yourself is a powerful message to send to your kids
George Lynn
cause, you know. They do get better. I see this all the time.
George Lynn
boutlaw; Yes!
jep1
Does parenting a bd child get any easier as they progress through adolescence? When hormones settle down and they stop growing?
Jennifer
What is an "average" length of time before they get better? Before you find the right cocktail of meds?
George Lynn
I think it gets much easier. Many kids at some point stop fighting meds because they want to have friends. The brain also goes through a growth spurt (frontal cortex) toward the end of adolescence and keeps growing through the twenties. I usually see a lot of improvement during this time...
jep1
So there is something to look forward to! :)
George Lynn
Jennifer, Dr. David Comings says “most parents will try 5 or more meds before arriving at the trunk medication”. The most important one! This is an art because every kid is different. I think it is very important to give meds a chance to work (6-8 wks for example for an SSRI) and not jump around too much.
George Lynn
jep1 you bet there is. These kids come in with their parents. That says a lot. Means that the parents, many of them bd themselves, have got the dragon by the tail..
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
There are a lot of questions, so I will try to put some of them together
Teens - how to handle them when they are promiscuous and this goes against the parent's own values?
BonJEsp
How can a parent be sure that a behavior is a bp behavior and not teen behavior and when not to medicate for it (so to speak)
George Lynn
Wendy, good question. Research indicates that bd boys may get in trouble with the law, and both may have problems with inappropriate sexuality. Solutions involve having the right med on board to help with impulsivity and over energized sexual system, involve education in safe sex, and involves being a pain in the butt to your kid by checking on his or her friends. It involves getting others in the community such as a coach at school, the family doctor, or admired friend to talk about the issues and dangers.
rhoda
What if a teen refuses meds?
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
This is a particularly relevant issue in my own household too.
George Lynn
Bonjesp. All teens have mercurial mood swing. I get a lot of parents now convinced that their kids are bd. I say "show me the mania." this is the cut. If a kid is manic, and there is mania in his line, and he has other indicators I start looking for bd as a causative. If he is bd and we know that, I simply tell him bd is an explanation not an excuse. Sorry kid that is the way the judge will look at it and I might as well give you the news now.
George Lynn
Med refusal: First, Get others involved. Your family doctor or other admired adult. Don’t push meds. They only push back. Make meds compliance a basic requirement for driving the car, taking drivers Ed, going out with friends, and any thing. And you might try to get some of his friends into the discussion.
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
Wow, folks, an hour has flown by in here.
George Lynn
Thanks Wendy, I am available email at George Lynnynn@genius-childspirit.com and welcome follow up.
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
George, I'd like to thank you for doing the chat for us
George Lynn
It was a true pleasure..
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
I will save the other questions, perhaps we can post them on a message board in the future
Kim
Yes, thank you it was very informative
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
The transcript for tonight's chat will also be posted on the website when I am able to do it.
BonJEsp
thanks George for your help
George Lynn
Good! lets do that. I can visit from time to time there- and please do check out the book “Genius! Nurturing the Spirit of the Wild, Odd, and Oppositional Child.”
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
Thanks miss Cath, for that broadcast. We hope to do this again another time!
Wendy C - The Balanced Mind Foundation Facilitator
Well, we can all adjourn to the other chat rooms and continue chatting if you'd like there are facilitators on hand to help answer any questions you may have we do have scheduled chats, check the announcements board for them.
Thanks everyone for coming!!!!