6yr old possible BP...nightmares/terrors??
My 6yr old DD is being eval'ed/monitored for possible early-onset BPD. We do have a family history...my mother is undiagnosed but has all the ''classic'' symptoms, as well as my 1st cousin. There are also several cases of anxiety/depression in my immeadiate family, with myself suffering from panic attacks. Now back to my DD...at age 3 she was dx'ed with ADHD/ADD & ODD. She was also dx'ed with a mild verbal apraxia at that time. At age 5 she was dx'ed with GAD & OCD (we were told she met criteria for every anxiety disorder). She was also dx'ed with ''disorder of infancy, childhood, or adolescence NOS'' & is ''borderline ASD''. Now her drs are worried she was misdx'ed or has a comorbid dx of BPD. One of the (many) reasons for the concern is she has started having some fairly horrible dreams in the past 4-6 months or so. She refuses to talk about them mostly just crying/stating she is too scared but she has told me of 2 different ones that I will detail at the end. She does not watch anything nor has she been through any tramatic event that would cause these dreams. She has experienced the death of a great-gpa almost 2yrs ago but, in honesty, did not seem too affected by it. She has made very nonchalant comments about death such as she told her brother (then 3yrs) that when he ''got bigger mommy & daddy will be dead''. She has always had sleep problems...now on clonidine she only sleeps approx 5-6hrs. Since the onset of the dreams she has started saying things like ''I don't like to sleep'' & ''I never will sleep mommy''. The dreams she has discussed are:
Dream 1-she said ''There was a boy & he had a shovel, a knife, & a bat. Bubby was there & he was 3 like he is now. I told the boy to stop that was my brother but he said no & hit him with the bat'' (at that point she just stopped & said it's too scary to sleep)
Dream 2 (last night)-she said ''I was looking in circles back & forth. Someone hurt their self & there was blood all on the floor. A lizard was eating the blood. Kameron was there then he started eating the blood off the floor. I ran to bubba's room to hide & Kameron said let's get the children & I couldn't hide'' (Kameron is her cousin)
What makes a 6yr old dream these things?! If these are the dreams she is comfortable sharing with me, I'm terrified to know what she's dreamnt all the times she has refused to open up with me :-( My ? is...I am trying to learn the difference in what is considered mania vs depression...I know in young children presentation of the cycles are very much different. Would dreams like this occur during cycles of mania or depression? Or just anytime regardless? It seems she will have these on & off...such as she will have a wk or so of these then nothing for awhile then a wk or so more of them, etc...which makes me wonder if they are occuring during cycle periods.
I am so sorry if this post is confusing! & thank you so much to anyone who has taken time to read this far!
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~*~Lisa*aka*Mommy~*~
DD(7)-asthma, allergies (dust mite, tree pollen, severe cat/dog, animal dander, some metals)
DD(6)-ADHD, ADD, ODD, GAD, severe OCD, mild verbal apraxia, ''borderline'' ASD, possible BPD
DS(4)-preemie, chronic asthma, severe SPD, development/speech delays (almost caught up thanks to 2+ yrs of extensive therapy!)
Other than Clonidine, is she on any psychotropic medications? If she is, did the start of the nightmares coincide with starting a medication or changing the dosage on a medication. Some psychotropic medications can cause vivid and sometimes scary dreams. Some of the dreams can be very difficult to differentiate from reality.
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Beth
DH - Husband & Father
DS 16.3 - BP II, NVLD, GAD, Borderline Personality Traits, Transgender (female to male) and gifted
Geodon 40mg AM & 60mg PM (tapering off), Prozac 10mg every other PM (tapering off), Buspar 15mg AM/PM & Lunesta 2mg PM as needed for sleep
In 11th grade at a small alternative hybrid competency based public high school in Northern California, with IEP for ED & SLD
Thanks for the reply. The only other med she is currently taking is 1/2 a 20mg Ritalin tablet in the morning in order to get her through the school day. She's been on it since around Jan so I don't think it would be the cause...I hope not b/c after bouncing between a ton of different ADHD meds & having a full on mental breakdown with one...this is the only one she's tolerated well. I would say the dreams started around July/Aug. She also has migraines that come & go. I feel so helpless with this process :-/ I've been trying to learn as much as I can but there is SO much!
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~*~Lisa*aka*Mommy~*~
DD(7)-asthma, allergies (dust mite, tree pollen, severe cat/dog, animal dander, some metals)
DD(6)-ADHD, ADD, ODD, GAD, severe OCD, mild verbal apraxia, ''borderline'' ASD, possible BPD
DS(4)-preemie, chronic asthma, severe SPD, development/speech delays (almost caught up thanks to 2+ yrs of extensive therapy!)
I did some research. Your daughter's situation is complex. A rare side effect of Clonodine is severe nightmares. Nightmares are not listed as a side effect of Ritalin, but there is anecdotal evidance that Ritalin causes nightmares. Ritalin could be interacting with Clnodine in a way that triggers the nightmares. Migraines can cause nightmares and visa versa. Lastly, nightmares are common in bipolar children.
Since your daughter's problems are both neurological (migraines and sleep problems) and psychiatric (GAD, OCD, ADHD and ODD) you may want to consider seeing a neuropsychologist. If you can not find a neuropsychologist, you may want to consider a neurologist that her pdoc is comfortable working closely with
If your family has any history of brain aneurysms, your daughter should get a MRI/MRA for her migraines ASAP. Brain aneurysms are heriditary. When my mother passed away from a brain aneurysm I was told that if myself or my children got migraines that I must get a MRI/MRA done because brain aneurysm are heriditary.
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Beth
DH - Husband & Father
DS 16.3 - BP II, NVLD, GAD, Borderline Personality Traits, Transgender (female to male) and gifted
Geodon 40mg AM & 60mg PM (tapering off), Prozac 10mg every other PM (tapering off), Buspar 15mg AM/PM & Lunesta 2mg PM as needed for sleep
In 11th grade at a small alternative hybrid competency based public high school in Northern California, with IEP for ED & SLD
For us, we set our daughter up a camping matress on the floor right next to our bed. When it was bad, she would climb into bed with us. Today, she is past the worst of the storm, but considering all the trama and turmoil in her life, we still let her stay in our room.
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BK Daughter 7 BP/violent rages. Unsuccessful with multiple meds. Now reasonably stable for last 3 Months (with a few regressions) on Intuniv + Restrictive diet + True Hope's EMPowerPlus & AminoPowerplus + fish oil + low dose lithium.
There is a difference between night terrors and nightmares- happens at a different stage of sleep. My son used to have night terrors, which happen usually within 90 mins of going to sleep. For a while, it didn't pay to for me to go to bed until he had passed that stage. It seemed better when he was on a lithium/antipsychotic combo, which helped him sleep better. It actually got worse however when we started to use supplements in combination with his med combo- lowering his meds relieved the night terrors. Since stabilizing using supps, the night terrors have been gone.
There's more info here- http://www.nightterrors.org/mot.htm and in this newletter:
http://bipolarchild.com/2000/07/vol-4-night-terrors-in-children-with-bipolar-disorder/
one page- http://www.nightterrors.org/darlene.htm- offers some alternative suggestions. Having a fan on in the room helped, providing a white noise and also helped with body temp regulation. That seems to be another common issue.
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Darryl - parent volunteer, dad to
Levi, 12, stable using supps and diet exclusively since June 07. Previously treated and stable with med combo inc. lithium, 900mg seroquel, and small amounts of risperdal, luvox and focalin after being dx'd at age 3 1/2.
My younger daughter (interestingly, she also had migraines - really severe ones that got worse and more frequent) also had terrible nightmares. She went quickly into REM and they were ver real, some even intruding after she awoke, They caused her so much distress and even PTSD from the nightmares! Some meds made them worse, and some terrible terrible ones may have actually been from the withdrawal symptoms from meds.
Amazingly, no doctor even suggested a sleep study to us until I took her to a new GP when she was 16 years old! She'd been to a pediatic neurologist who just blew her off as a psych patient and did nothing. :-(
Although we have a lot of her issues fixed (she is now 24) she still ocassionally suffers from "excessive REM" (REM stands for Rapid Eye Movement and is the stage when we dream) and her dreams (not usually nightmares anymore) are still too real, feeling like she has lived months, sometimes, only to wake to a life that is not continuing with what she expected. But she adapts.
Oh, I just thought about this - hypoglycemia also can cause dreams that are too vivid.
--"Naomi"
It's Not Mental-Sleep as a cause
Older dd: formerly(?) teen-onset bipolar (morphed into ultradian cycling): "Recovered" after over 13 years - stable off psych meds almost two years. Now fine on just diet changes and higher thyroid levels (after healing - addressing gut issues/Candidal overgrowth while using EMPowerPlus and other supplements).
Younger dd: formerly(?) Childhood-onset schizoaffective, TS, OCD, anxiety, PTSD, migraines. After over 15 years, is now "recovered" for almost 5 years after treating endocrine issues, food sensitivities, gut issues, sleep issues, nutritional/mitochondrial needs.
My son had terrible nightmares/terrors. Where he could feel the pain. There is a great chapter on night terrors in the book, The Bipolar Child.
My son was only three when he would dream that my eyes where sowed shut and that I was trying to kill him and his infant sister, he was so scared, he picked up his sister and was hiding in the corner trying to keep her away from me. There was more to the dream but that is what stuck with me, the pure terror on my child's face while he was trying to protect his sister from me:( He then did not sleep for 3 days.
He once drempt of a lion that bit his arm off. He described a lion in great detail, and wanted his arm bandage because the pain was so real to him. In that book, I recall them saying that for a child with bp, that when most of dream and for example are falling off of a building that they wake up before hitting the ground, A person with bp will keep dreaming and will experience the pain, the smells, the fear.