General Discussion Forum Archives - 2008

DISCUSSION: New to board-newly diagnosed (finally) 2008-04-02 20:11:20 2008-04-02 12:45:52

Hi Everyone

I am mother to a 16 (17 in 2 wks) yr old son who is newly diagnosed BP/ADD. He has been treated for ADD for several years and a variety of stimulants/APs to no avail, and last fall had his first "manic" episode where he disappeared for several days, smoked a lot of marijuana, and came home and proceeded to become violent and pull a knife on my husband and I. During this period, he had been under the care of a child and adolescent psychiatrist, and was not on any meds as the pdoc was trying iron out which of his issues were behavioural. Since this point, she has seen him regularly, connected with his highschool, and started him on lithium for BP (several instances in our family, as well as his father (my ex) who is schizophrenic)

To come to my point now, he has refused to take lithium (although it worked for him pretty well), as he said is makes him feel "flat". Pdoc prescribed Valproic Acid (depakote) and seroquel, but seroquel made him aggressive again, and as of yesterdays pdoc appt., he will not take anything at all again. In fact, he now is trying to prove there is nothing wrong with him, and I am the one with the illness, i.e. he will provoke and antagonize his sister and I to get an angry response, and then videotape it on his cell phone to "show" his doctor. This morning was an example of a scenario where he suddenly insisted he was not going to school until 9:05 because that was when school started. Of course, he knows full well school starts at 8:45, but he continuously followed me around the house with his phone trying to antagonize me insisting he was not going until 9:05, all the while narrating his little video with commentary of "mom" being the one who needs meds.

I guess, I am writing because the frustration of dealing with the mood swings, anger explosions, irrational behaviour, self-medicating with pot, keeping every up because he does not sleep, paranoia that everyone is stealing from him, and defiance and oppositional behaviour is making our home life a living hell. He has no friends, and therefore never leaves the house, so there is never a break from the eggshells that we have to walk on.

I know that he is trying to prove he does not have BP, and does not want to accept this. But I have had to take a medical leave from work for the past two months to deal with this, and his refusal to take meds as of yesterday has taken away all my hope of getting to a normal life for him and the entire family.

As parents of teens, is there anyone who has had these issues with non-compliance and found strategies to help? The rages are scary and life has become a daily struggle with him.

Any comments would be GREATLY appreciated!

Deb

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by supernova - 2008-04-02 13:32:40

Hi Deb, if you have the means I would seriously think about an RTC. You might have trouble finding a good one that will take a 17 yo, but it isn't impossible. You basically have one year to work on getting him to a point of accepting his illness and stabilizing him. Once he hits 18 the decisions are, unfortunately, out of your hands.

In the meantime, have you considered bribing him to take his meds? Yes, I'm serious. Does he want a car? Does he respond to financial incentives? You could have a contract that he signs wherein he agrees to take hsi meds and undergo 2x monthly blood draws to monitor his levels in exchange for___________.

I've heard of kids basically stalking their parents around the house, but your son seems to be a good example. FWIW - my son can get provocative when he is unstable, but it more in line with being annoying.

Sending you ((hugs)) and support.

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Response (2.)... by kotocat - 2008-04-02 13:45:36

When my daughter was unstable she followed me around the house taunting me simular to what you wrote about. I know how frustrating it can be when your teen's behavior boarders on verbal abuse to plain disrespect. You can feel so victimized and alone. Once she was on the proper combination of medications her behavior drastically changed for the better.

I am the "safe person" so she occasionally directs her anger at me. I've told her if it ever comes to a point where I felt I coundn't keep her or our family safe I would call the police. And like a broken record I've told her once you break the law and get involved in the judicial system , there is very little a parent can do.

You have come to the right place. There are several people with teens that understand the challenges we face as parents.

Here to offer support. good luck

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Response (3.)... by monica4patience - 2008-04-02 14:23:50

I'd turn the tables on him: carry a small tape recorder w/ you and tape his taunting of you. Be very careful w/ your responses though as you are also on tape.

I did that years ago to show pdocs and tdocs what I was trying to tell them. We were in the car and DS (then 12?) was having a rage: spitting, foul language, throwing things, taunting. I turned on the tape and made sure that I said things in response to what he was doing. "Do not throw your shoe at me while I'm driving." "Please do not spit at me." etc. It really did help the pdocs and tdocs see what we were living with.

Most recently, I used the camcorder and recorded DS15 playing w/ an assault-type nerf gun: very graphic, very vulgar, all by himself; very, very manic. We had been to tdoc on Friday; pdoc on Saturday; and both said he wasn't manic enough to hospitalize. I took tape into tdoc on Monday and DS15 heard the audio which tripped him into mania and tdoc said to go directly to Psych ER--finally!!!! He was admitted to phosp for 17 days!! We've only been home for 6 days so it's still too early to tell whether we've had success or not.

Can the pdoc offer any help w/ getting him to admit dx and need for meds?

Monica

DS15, adoptee, 10th grade at private school for kids with learning differences

BP, TS, ADHD, OCD, anxiety, delayed puberty, trichotillomania, PDD-NOS

Lithium 1500mg; Abilify 20mg; Seroquel 700mg; Levothyroxine 50mcg / 75mcg; Omega 3 2000mg; plays guitar, drums, keyboard; songwriter; hockey; loves playing w/ little kids.

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Response (4.)... by fizbin - 2008-04-02 16:05:26

It's certainly hard to deal with a person who is obviously sick and won't admit it. Unfortunately this is not uncommon with BP or any other mental illness. You might want to get the book I'm Not Sick I Don't Need Help by Xavier Amador. This talks about the very thing you are going through and may be of help.

The most important thing is to know that you are not at fault and he must take responsibility for his illness. One of the other posters suggested RTC. That might not be a bad idea given his age and might get him straightened out. I'd speak to the pdoc about this.

Good luck and keep us posted

Eileen

The Balanced Mind Foundation Parent to Parent Volunteer

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Response (5.)... by dclg@sympatico.ca - 2008-04-02 16:22:23

Thanks for your responses - yes, he does stalk me through the house - I have had to lock myself in my bathroom when he has threatened me before. With regard to bribing him with a car, etc., he doesn't drive and has no interest in pursuing a license. He doesn't leave the house at all. I've tried with money incentives, and he pretended to take the meds, but hid them in his room.

I do think that I'm going to tape him though. I was thinking that on Saturday when we had to drive an hour away, just him and I, and he was raging at me and continuously turning the radio volume up full while he swore, threatened and insulted me without end. When I told him I was not going to participate any further, that I was finished talking and would not listen to him anymore, he continued to taunt and provoke me until we got to our destination. When he gets like this, he has even admitted to me that he enjoys the rage - it makes him feel good and happy.

And that is what he is telling me now - that everyone else has a problem with his moods and rages, but HE doesn't, and he is fine with how he is, so too bad for everyone else.

I've had to tell him today that if he feels this way, then if there is aggression, threats, violence, etc. that is destroying everyone else's ability to live in peace, he will have to live somewhere else. His response is that I am threatening him, and he's not going anywhere - in fact, he has said if anyone tries to make him leave his home, someone is going to "die".

I really don't want to have to have a show down with the police here, and him holed up in the house threatening violence, but I am having to come to the realization that I may need to have the strength to handle that if it comes down to it, to get him stabilized.

This a nightmare - it just never ends. There are nights when no one can even get to bed - my husband goes to work at 5am, and my son is raging and tearing up his room and can't/won't go to bed. We are all kept up and in "crisis" mode. It is just draining everyone.

Anyway, I'm really glad I was told about this site by my doctor, and feel so much better not feeling alone in dealing with this nightmare.

Thanks

Deb

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Response (5.1.)... by supernova - 2008-04-02 17:16:48

If he is home at all times he is not at school, then he is spending his time doing something. Is it computers, tv, reading, videogames? Whatever his interest, try to use it to your advantage. Part of the contract needs to be taking the meds in front of you or your spouse AND monthly blood monitoring (when possible, depending on the med).

Our son is 13, and when he was younger we did the up all night thing, too. It is exhausting for the parents, but as you know, the kid is engergized. Ds wasn't raging, he was just up up UP; pillaging the house, doing experiments, watching movies, jumping on his bed, etc.

As far as videotaping him - please don't put yourself in harm's way. The best way to do with a teen is probably surreptitiously. A digital audio recording might be a better bet. Getting in his face with a video camera could incite him to become physical. Keep your cell phone on you at all times - and a house key, if possible.

Why is the videotaping necessary? Are you trying to arm yourself with a defense against potential future false allegations? Does the pdoc question your son's behavior? Do you plan on showing the recording to your son?

Even if you are unsure about the RTC route, I would start investigating now. Check with your insur company and see what they cover. Ask around on message boards to find the best RTCs that are close to you. www.strugglingteens.com is a good place to research. Lastly, I wouldn't threaten a stay at a RTC. Your son isn't able to be rational and control himself. You and your dh will have to be the ones to make the decision when the time comes. You might even have to employ a third party to transport your ds to the RTC. Absolutely don't tell him ahead of time once you have made your decision.

How old is your dd? Does she have a lock on her bedroom door and her own cell phone? Does she have a friendly and sympathetic neighbor she can visit when needed?

Kudos to your doctor for referring you to this site. What state are you in?

Hang in there!

Struggling Teens

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Response (5.1.1.)... by supernova - 2008-04-02 17:23:27

You mentioned that Seroquel and/or Depakote made is behavior worse. This type of reaction, while not common, does happen. There is a name for this Treatment Emergent Mania (TEM). There is a brief overview of TEM in Parenting a Bipolar Child; What To Do & Why by Faedda and Austin.

"The development of new, or the worsening of preexisting manic symtoms with psychotroic drugs is an important clinical phenomenon, and a devestating and traumatic event for the child and the entire family."

I also recommend The Bipolar Teen by David Miklowitz.

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Response (6.)... by dclg@sympatico.ca - 2008-04-02 19:53:07

Thanks again for your feedback. My daughter is 14, and I am in Ontario, Canada. We have a whole slew of health specialists involved, i.e. a therapist and psychiatrist for me (medical leave since Dec. due to stress), child & adolescent psychologist for dd, and child & adolescent psychiatrist for ds.

I had thought about taping him (audio) to let him hear afterward when he goes into denial about what happens. He has teetered between shame at his actions/behaviour with the realization that he needs the meds, to insistence he is absolutely fine and "I" am just trying to make the world believe there is something wrong with him.

One of the things I struggle so hard with is that when he has stable periods, he is a decent, strong, caring person and I see evidence of a wonderful man he could become. But more and more, he is embracing a "criminal" mindset, using aggression and force to get what he wants. He has expressed to me that he feels he is incapable of ever holding a job, and will have to generate an income "some other way...." It is so terrifying, because I am aware that the jails are full of people who end up there because they are suffering untreated mental illness. I just can't bear the thought of my child following that path.

As I mentioned earlier, my ex-husband (son's dad) is schizophrenic, and has had a full psychotic break - believes there are secret messages for him in crossword puzzles, that the Liberal gov't is plotting against him, etc. He takes Risperdal, yet insists he is not ill and it is everyone around him plotting against him. He has never accepted his illness since it emerged over 17 years ago. His prognosis has not been good - and his illness has destroyed his family, his life, a successful business, his ability to work and his relationship with his kids. Over the years I have been fearfully monitoring for any indications that either child may have a genetic predisposition for mental illness. How painful to watch my first born become ill... I would move heaven and earth to make it all go away. (as I'm sure you all feel)

I just want to see my son calm, content and with clarity and reason in his eyes. I keep an image of him like that in my mind and I am trying to work toward that outcome for him. RTC's in Canada are few and far between - psych hospitals seem to be the only route, and that is only involuntary in the face of imminent threat.

I really appreciate all of your responses - I think I'll be hanging around here a lot over the hext while.

Deb

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Response (7.)... by dclg@sympatico.ca - 2008-04-02 20:11:20

I found the info below on this website under the legal section and showed it to my son. He has agreed to try the medication!!!!!!!!!!

"Impulsive aggression. A child with bipolar disorder may express his or her overwhelming feelings at school, or may express them only at home. The target of the child's outburst is often a family member, most frequently the parent to whom the child feels closest. The episodes of aggression are usually not of a predatory nature but are triggered by a hyperaroused stress-response system (part of the physiology of people with the disorder) and a feeling of being attacked or frustrated. A child or teen with impulsive aggression needs medical treatment to gain self-control, and should be referred to a doctor"

Crossing my fingers......

Deb

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DISCUSSION: BP Pen Pal for 9-year old wanted! 2008-04-13 18:10:38 2008-03-01 13:04:00

She says: I am 9 and my name is Bridget . :smile:

She would like a bipolar pen pan, since she doesn't know anyone else her age who is bipolar. This would be a parent moderated (and probably parent typed) communication, but we thought maybe there is someone else out there who could also benefit from feeling like he or she is not the only one!

Thanks,

Tracy

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by atiredparent - 2008-03-01 13:26:30

What a great idea. I hope that you will find someone.

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Response (2.)... by jillsr@carolina.rr.com - 2008-03-01 21:53:40

Hi Tracy,

My 11 year old daughter would love to have Bridget as a pen pal.

Please email us!

jillsr@carolina.rr.com.

My daughter's name is Emily.

Thanks,

Jill

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Response (3.)... by salt64 - 2008-03-01 21:59:35

I haven't run the idea past my son yet but I've often wondered if it would be beneficial for him (and others with bp) to have the opportunity to correspond with others "in the same boat". Would your daughter be ok with a male pen-pal, 11 yrs old? I don't believe "cooties" is contagious via the postal system (lol!).

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Response (4.)... by michasmom - 2008-03-01 23:17:12

I love that idea. My dd is too young yet, but her sibling who is not bp does not have anyone who understands what it is like to have a bp sister. He is 10. Does anyone have a child around that age who would like to correspond with him?

Chandra

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Response (4.1.)... by cettles1@q.com - 2008-03-02 10:41:43

It is a good ideal.But be carefull.Check them out.

Grandma & Mom

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Response (5.)... by aim9600@hotmail.com - 2008-03-02 23:39:56

Hi all. This is such a great idea. My ds is 10 and loves to get mail.. Would anyone wont to be his penpal? Would you wont it to be snail mail or email?? His name is Auston and right now he is really into webkinz. So everyday he goes and does his thing on the webkinz site. I like playing the games. Well anyway my email address is aim9600@hotmail.com

If you wont to exchange addresses or even just email would be great for us. He loves to get letters. Wonder idea !!!! :smile: :smile: :smile:

Thanks Aimee

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Response (6.)... by nlyles77 - 2008-03-03 12:30:23

This is a wonderful idea. As part of the support group I run we do get togethers for the children to play, but this is usually quarterly. I have a 12 year old son who would love for me to type his letters!

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Response (7.)... by ssngrnr@yahoo.co.uk - 2008-03-11 19:31:12

This sounds a great idea as long as mums and dads keep a very close eye on the emails. I have a daughter aged 16 who would like to write to others as there is no one in her age group who has bipolar either in school or locally. We live in England UK.

best wishes

ssngrnr@yahoo.co.uk

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Response (8.)... by jkela07@yahoo.com - 2008-03-11 20:28:45

I'm sure Ethan would love to have a penpal that understands him. Ethan is 9 (almost) and I know he fells like there are no other kids out there like him. My e-mail add is jkela07@yahoo.com if anyone is interested.

Kelly 28

Ethan 8 1/2 (9 in may), mood disorder nos, psychotic disorder nos, adhd, type 1 diabetes, lithium 375mg, seroquel 50mg, naltrexone 75mg, vyvanse 30mg, periactin 8mg, insulin injections 2 times daily

Lilly 3 1/2

Abby 11mos

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Response (9.)... by mrslvsdas - 2008-03-11 20:30:21

in our email support group my dd sib writes to another sib.

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Response (10.)... by shannon_humphrey@verizon.net - 2008-03-20 01:04:54

My son Mitchel is 9yrs old and when I told him about the idea of having a pen pal he loved it. I think that it would be therapeutic for him to chat with others that feel like he does. My e-mail is: satori820@verizon.net.

Thanks,

Shannon

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Response (11.)... by alyssamom - 2008-03-24 17:46:07

Hi There, I have a 10yr old DD who is BP and does not have anyone who understands this, so I think if she had someone of the same age that can understand all this it would most beneficial. She also is into Webkinz, also she has a younger sister who does not have BP but would love someone whom she could talk with about having a sibling with BP.

Please email me at lavgoddess@yahoo.com

Thanks

Michelle Mom

Alyssa BP ODD 100mg lamictal, 75mgs Risperdal

Ashley 8 Sister

Mo Loving Daddy

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Response (12.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-03-24 18:49:26

Also looking for pal! Has tried NAMI and pychcentral without much success. Just wants someone to "talk" to about BP and just regular teenage stuff! email me at clhteh @ aol.com.

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Response (12.1.)... by atiredparent - 2008-03-24 22:04:14

Are there any local support groups that you could attend or perhaps post at the local dept of mental health? How about putting a message on your online support groups?

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Response (12.1.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-03-25 12:23:35

Nearest support groups are 45 minutes away and with only 1 car, brother's sports, and dad works at night, it is pretty impossible. We did check however, no groups for the kids themselves. Local mental health place is a JOKE!

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Response (12.2.)... by atiredparent - 2008-03-24 22:06:37

See the post above from ssngrnr. She has a 16 yo and from another country. that might be fun for your daughter.

The email address was ssngrnr@yahoo.co.uk

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Response (13.)... by salt64 - 2008-03-25 16:39:00

I mentioned the idea to my son and was surprised that he was interested. He has bp & will be 12 next month. His e-mail is jakeman55@verizon.net.

I do monitor his account - as I'm sure most of us parents do. If anyone has a child out there that would be interested in jotting a note, I'm sure he'd be happy to respond.

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Response (13.1.)... by gogogirl - 2008-04-08 23:43:36

Hi, My son is 11 and might well be interested in a pen pal relationship. If your son still wanting to try could you send me a note? gmccrosky@comcast.net

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Response (14.)... by elizabeth@lindellfamily.org - 2008-04-08 02:24:48

Hi...

My daughter is in the process of being diagnosed. I, myself, am bipolar, and we feel that it is very likely our daughter is. I know she would love to correspond with a peer going through issues children at her school are not facing. She has told me so many times that she feels so different from her friends. I think a pen pal via parent-monitered email would be wonderful for her.

Elizabeth

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Response (14.1.)... by mronayne - 2008-04-08 07:10:44

Hi Elizabeth...

My name is Mary. My daughter is Shannon, 8 years old. She is also in the "diagnosis" process...has been for a long time! I am not sure how to go about this "pen pal" idea, but I am willing to give it a shot. My personal email address is: mronayne@charter.net. My gut feeling is our daughters are very similiar. This could be a really great thing. Let me know what you think. Thanks.

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Response (14.1.1.)... by stevem@ext.usu.edu - 2008-04-13 18:10:38

Hi,

My 8 year old son Jake would really, really like to have someone to talk to that understands. He is convinced that all kids hate him...He really needs a friend right now.

Is anyone willing to let their kid write to Jake?

Thanks,

Steve and Tiffany

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DISCUSSION: Is Mom the Safe Zone? 2008-04-12 21:56:17 2008-04-01 05:10:58

My wife travels weekly and I see after the family. When mom is gone, my 7 year old BP daughter acts "normally". When I say normally I mean she follows the rules, no rages, little mania and generally no acting out. When mom returns, my daughter regresses to baby talk, large manic periods that lead to major rages, etc.. I read in "The Bi-Polar Child" that BP children will do this when they are in their "safe zone", or the zone where they feel like they can "be themselves". Any suggestions on how we can help her to continue the behaviors when mom is gone to the times that mom is here? Thank you in advance for your advice.

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by fizbin - 2008-04-01 10:47:15

Have you tried the Explosive Child by Ross Greene? If you use this method consistently, it might help to even out the behaviors. But yes it sounds like Mom is the comfort zone for your daughter. Does your daughter get therapy or are you just seeing a pdoc for med management? It might be a good idea to consider therapy as well if she isn't seeing someone. This might help get to the bottom of why she is acting up and help develop skills for coping.

Eileen

The Balanced Mind Foundation Parent to Parent Volunteer

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Response (1.1.)... by zbarbuff@vcn.com - 2008-04-02 07:59:01

Could it be, too, that when Mom comes home there is a disruption in schedule? I know all of our kids (7) do much better with very set structure. When our routine is thrown off balance things go a little haywire!

Food for thought

Terri

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Response (1.1.1.)... by pumpkin - 2008-04-02 09:15:49

Yes, Mom is usually the one the child feels safest with to let it all out. One thing that has helped in our situation is my husband steps in when son starts acting out with me. I say something to bp son and dh just stands there and backs me up. I am the one who would always get the worst, but it has gotten better. The two parents standing together helps the child see that the rules will be the same and be consistent across the board. It is soo hard, I know!!! Your poor wife must feel awful since she gets this treatment when she comes home. Tell her I get it too and I am home most of the time. It has nothing to do with her parenting, it is just the comfort level is there.

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Response (2.)... by scott@brothersfamily.com - 2008-04-04 14:50:05

I have been contacted by 20/20 to do a story on BP children and they want to feature my daughter. I really do not know what to do. First, I do not want to exploit my daughter; however, I do want to being light to this disorder in children. What advice do you have for me?

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Response (2.1.)... by kalee - 2008-04-04 23:04:10

Hi Scott,

I think if I were you, I would re-post this by itself. You should get a lot of response. There are several here lately who have been approached.

Kathy

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Response (2.2.)... by cindymoden@yahoo.com - 2008-04-12 21:56:17

Do some soul searching on whether you want to really help someone out there who might be going through a similar situation, or if you are just excited about being on tv. Consider the girls wishes, how will she feel if all her friends find out her diagnosis?

I know that I am constantly looking for someone who really knows what I am going through and trying to learn from others experiences. It gives me hope for the future of all of our kids when I realize that I am not alone and we can make a difference in the lives of these kids.

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Response (3.)... by cindymoden@yahoo.com - 2008-04-12 21:46:21

I lived the nightmare of experiencing my son's worst behaviors and then having family and friends blame me for his bad behavior. No we do not cause our childs' rages but we can learn better ways to deal with them. I definately look for triggers, and avoid them. Try to be calm no matter how out of control your child is, show them good control yourself and over time it will help them see, besides preventing further deescalation.

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DISCUSSION: Getting teenager out of bed 2008-04-01 08:27:48 2008-04-01 07:18:46

This is getting soooooooo old... I have been getting him up for the bus with battles for 12 years!! Now that he is 16 I do think he should be responsible when he is stable. My son goes to a school that take 1/2 hour to drive him at rush hour. This is a major inconvenience to say the least and it disrupts everyone in our household.

Does anyone have any ideas how to wake this sleeping giant?

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by boomom - 2008-04-01 08:08:01

I'm assuming he's stable and med compliant as you mentioned and this is not med related.

If this is so, by law he must go to school. I wouldn't argue with him as it creates an unstable environment and that's what many teens want anyway.

I'd suggest the following :

I'd sit him down at a neutral time and let him know who has what responsibilities concerning getting to school. It's his to get out of bed and get to school. Advise him you will buy him an alarm clock to help him with this.

It sounds like you're driving him. Advise him of the time the car leaves the house. He should be in it if he wants a ride. If he's not, he'll need to find a way to get there.

Since it's law that he must attend school, you'll let the school know what you're doing and that you hope he makes it and you'll give him every opportunity to succeed. However, if he doesn't get out of bed and get there, he's to be reported truant. You record the days you tried to get him there but he didn't cooperate.

After a number of truancies the law will become involved. Before you panic, it's usually a resource officer at the school and they talk to him about the situation and reinforce much of what I'm suggesting you do. They're not going to throw him in jail - just get his attention.

He's 16. He needs to grow up and take responsibility for this kind of thing. You can support and love him thru it but he has to do it. He'll be 18 and not going to work or not going to college or being a couch potato on your couch if you allow it. Good luck!

Peace,

Alyson

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Response (2.)... by jistac - 2008-04-01 08:27:48

We have had great success getting difficult to rouse kids out of bed by using sunrise simulation. You can buy sunrise simulators that you attach to a standard desk lamp that turn on and gradually get brighter over time. But in our house due to the fact that I am an early riser, I am the sunrise simulator, gradually turning the dimmers up on the lights in my kids room to wake them. I have to say it works like a charm. I also recommend GREEN TEA. Green tea has just enough caffine to be stimulating but it also has other ingredients that are anti-anxiety and stabilizing for BP kids like L-Theinine. Green tea has also helped many in our household.

And if that doesn't work some guys at MIT designed an alarm clock with all terrain tires that runs away so it can't be turned off. It is really really cute. I think it is called "Clocky" and is available online.

Jistac

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DISCUSSION: Biofeedback 2008-04-01 21:01:12 2008-04-01 13:05:37

has anyone ever tried this on a bipolar child?

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by kellykay - 2008-04-01 15:10:11

Hi...

We have been doing neurofeedback on my daughter since January. I would say it does seem to be helping...though I think it's hard to pinpoint what actually is helping make the improvement. I am going to keep doing the treatment in the event it may be helping. Life with her is still a struggle, but she does seem to be a little better at controlling herself. Every little bit helps you know?

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Response (2.)... by jistac - 2008-04-01 20:25:08

If you search the Complementary and Alternative Board Archives you will find that there have been several discussions of Biofeedback/ Neurofeedback in the past. For awhile there was one mom who was a big advocate of it and even trained herself to do it.

Jistac

CAM Board Moderator

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Response (3.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-01 21:01:12

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DISCUSSION: Erika (aka:gorman@cybermesa.com) 2008-04-05 20:52:24 2008-04-01 13:57:10

How is your boy doing at Merridell?

Cheri

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by gorman@cybermesa.com - 2008-04-02 20:17:38

Hi Cheri,

Thanks for asking. He's doing SO well there. They did the QEEG 3 times on him and said he is bipolar, autistic, and most interesting of all, NVLD. I had never heard of non-verbal learning disorder, so I had to hit the internet and get up to speed. As I read up on NVLD, I had tears streaming down my face. It is such a revelation to me to have a real "label" that fits him 100%. It gives us new avenues to research and places to explore to help him in school. Reading the details about NVLD, I felt like someone had followed Dane around every day of his 11 years and written about him specifically. SO, the pdoc put him on Amantadine (sp?) to activate his frontal lobes and it seems to be working already. Last week they started him on Lamictal too, so the effects of that remain to be seen. The BAD thing is our insurance company is only approving his stay 1 day at a time now. They are harrassing us on the phone daily, saying Dane needs to be discharged. The good folks at Meridell heartily disagree, but insurance companies must know better than a facility full of experts! :eek:

Does anyone else have any advice regarding NVLD? Books you'd recommend?

Thanks for listening,

Erika, New Mexico

Son, Dane, 11, BP, 900mg Lithium, 20 mg Abilify, 100mg lamictal, 50mg amantadine

Daughter, Kelsey, 16, no problems

Son, Ethan 18, No problems

StepSon Bill, 14, Hearing impaired

Husband, Bill, Saint

Tons of animals

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Response (1.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-03 17:36:40

I am SO GLAD he is doing so well!!! And all the pin-point, nailed-down dxs you've gotten!! THAT IS AWESOME!!!!

:sillygrin:

As far as the ins- Cyndi is having the same problem!! :chagrin: Stupid people!!

Cheri

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Response (1.1.1.)... by gorman@cybermesa.com - 2008-04-03 20:54:06

I wonder if any of these politicians could really pull off a truly good universal health care with good mental health care...

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Response (2.)... by trehouse@optonline.net - 2008-04-03 07:11:03

I recommend "the Source for Nonverbal Learning Disorders" by Sue Thompson. It has suggestions for home, school, everywhere. I also recommend the book "Bridging the Gap: Raising a Child with Nonverbal Learning Disorder" by Rondalyn Varney Whitney.

If you get on Amazon and search for nonverbal learning disorder, you'll find a bunch of suggestions, but those are my first 2 top picks. I basically have a library on this topic. Let me know if you want to know the rest of my titles!

Sam

Max, 6, Lamcital/invega

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Response (2.1.)... by gorman@cybermesa.com - 2008-04-03 20:55:43

Sam--wonderful! Thanks for the tip. It's always nice to have someone recommend a good book since there are so many to choose from. I have a bookcase on bipolar--guess I need to clear a shelf for NVLD.

Cheers,

Erika

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Response (2.2.)... by gorman@cybermesa.com - 2008-04-03 21:10:26

Sam,

I was just on Amazon and the Sue Thompson book was out of stock AND $56!! It must be out of print and the ones that exist are expensive. Do you have a 3rd top pick?

Thanks,

Erika

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Response (3.)... by trehouse@optonline.net - 2008-04-04 16:59:05

I'd try "Raising NLD Superstars" by Marcia Brown Rubinstien, or "A Special Kind of Brain" By Nancy Russell Burger & Byron P. Rourke. Byron Rourke is the real father is writing on this topic, but most of his writing is not terribly accessible or helpful for parents.

There's also "Nonverbal Learning Disabilities at Home" by Pamela B Tanguay & Rourke and "Nonverbal Learning Disabilities at School" by Tanguay & Thompson. The home/school books have a lot of pretty practical accommodations for various environments.

For the record, the Thompson book is really worth it if you can handle the price. It has stuff for teachers at every phase of education, and it's written in their language.

Sam

Max,6, Lamictal/Invega

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Response (3.1.)... by gorman@cybermesa.com - 2008-04-05 20:52:24

Hi Sam,

OK, I ordered the NLD Superstars and the Nonverbal learning disorders at School so I can give Dane's teacher a leg up. Thank you so much! I will put a hold on the Thompson book and buy it when it becomes available. I appreciate your help!

Erika

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DISCUSSION: looking for diagnosis 2008-04-01 13:03:27 2008-03-31 21:38:37

My 5 yr old son has every single symptom of BP, his ped thought he was ADHD and prescribed tofinal which only made him extremely violent. I took him to a physcologist and she is thinking he has aspburger's syndrome. I really need to find someone who knows about BP in my area.

His father was BP and I suffered many years with depression. I live in the Detroit area. Does anyone know of anyone who can help me get the right diagnosis for my son?

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-03-31 22:15:09

and click on the left of this page on Find A doctor? Also, you can check on NAMI. I forget where, but I believe it is in this website a link for pediatric pychs-maybe the American academy of? I'm sorry, I don't recall right off. What I did was spend 1 1/2 days calling every pdoc and tdoc we had in our yellow pages and asking if they knew about early onset BP, or BP and if they treated kids. Also, don't forget to ask about insurance!! Is there a MHMR in your area? I will also ask my group and see what I can find there. Keep checking back!!!

Cheri

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Response (1.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-01 11:26:02

I asked my group- there are 2 mom's from Michigan, but no response yet. I saw in their posts a Dr. D Averbach and also a Dr. Eric Beshears. The seond one is in Orchard Hills in Novi? No idea what that means, but hopefully they will see your post and can give more info!!

Cheri

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Response (2.)... by smallmom - 2008-03-31 23:07:31

Cheri's referring to the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Pscyhiatrists. Go to www.aacap.org and click on "Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist Finder" under Quick Links on the left-hand side. You can refine your search by city and state.

Do you have any children's or university teaching hospitals in your area? That's another place to look.

Good luck.

Julia in MD

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Response (3.)... by mronayne - 2008-04-01 08:56:34

Hi. It's been a VERY difficult and frustrating process to try and find a good pdoc that has experience with Early Onset Bipolar Disorder. We have seen a majority of them out in the Livingston County area and we are now going to visit Cleveland, OHio on Thursday to meet with a doctor there. WE are praying for a good outcome. Good luck!!!!!

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Response (4.)... by monica4patience - 2008-04-01 13:03:27

Dr. David Averbach is in Novi: 248-349-2000. We've been with him for 5 years and are very happy with the whole team there. They were the first to really listen to me; read my journal entries; review the mood charts; etc. Dr. A was the one who finally dx my son at age 11 w/ BP.

Monica

DS15, adoptee, 10th grade at private school for kids with learning differences; 5 days post phosp stay of 17 days and fairly stable.

BP, TS, ADHD, OCD, anxiety, delayed puberty; new dx of trichotillomania & PDD-NOS.

Lithium 1500mg; Abilify 20mg; Seroquel 700mg; Levothyroxine 50mcg / 75mcg; Omega 3 2000mg; plays guitar, drums, keyboard; songwriter; hockey; loves playing w/ little kids.

:smile:

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DISCUSSION: Daughter not getting any better 2008-04-06 10:38:43 2008-04-02 09:53:57

My daughter has been on medication for 5 to 6 years, first diagnoses was adhd, she has also been in counseling that long, then last year Taylor was placed out of the home because of her out of control behavior. she was brought back after two months after going to 2 different homes the last home gave their notice because they could not handle her. We do family therapy now & she is still doing her personal counseling & I am doing personal couseling for help to help her, I took her to another psychiatrist she was diagnosed with adhd & BP, they have changed her medications and added medications but she is not getting better, I don't know what to do, I am @ the end of my rope, everything is a struggle with her & there is always yelling & hitting & things being thrown, plus on top of all that every time she gets mad at me in the morning for trying to get her up for school and trying to get her around so they won't be late for school she turns me into the school with false statements of abuse, and because of the out of home placement last year we see TFI and she is still in SRS custody, so if they don't see improvement they can take her back out of the home and with her lies in anger of abuse they could take her out of the home. I really need some help, I don't want her to go back into foster care what can they do that I can't do, and it is wrong for them to do so. The only other option is for her to love with her dad, but he has been abusive in the past physically and still continues to mentally abuse & don't even think he is doing it. He was put in anger management after the divoce(because of the abuse that caused the abuse) & they tested him & told him he had a chemical imbalance, he took some medicine for a few days said it didn't help & that there was nothing wrong with him, but my daughter & him have the same problems really bad temper,extreme mood swings, thinks every one is against him that everyone else is wrong & him right everything is someone else's fault can't take resposibility for their own actions, & remember's things differently than they happened, controllive, has to be his way or no way. My daughter even hears voices, she has also tried to jump out of a moving vehicle doesn't remember what she has said or done right after it happened during her anger. She used to be on Adderall then she started having some problems so they switched it to Vyvance, they added risperdal, and she has always taken clonidine at night since she has started on medication, but she is still acting the same way and has recently tried choking herself ans kept repeating I want to die all because she didn't get a toy. Please help, give me some ideas or suggestions I have treid just about everything :frown: :worried: :confused:

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by sue-nc - 2008-04-02 10:33:17

You sound exactly like me (see post below)....I don't have the answers obviously but thought you may need a hug. My son is the same way after years of trying to help him. I'm sorry that your daughter is not doing any better and that you have to handle this alone. It's enough that our children get dx'd in the first place but to not have any really good options is hard. Then to be treated as if we somehow caused this or are not good parents really stinks. Maybe another poster will have some really good advice for you but I just wanted you to know you were heard and that you are in my thoughts today. Hang in there.

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Response (2.)... by fizbin - 2008-04-02 11:11:30

I would look at her meds. If she is not on a mood stabilizer then you might want to speak to the pdoc about adding one. The adhd meds might be a problem too they can activate and BP child causing the behaviors you mention. Also you may need to change the anti-psychotic she is on. Perhaps the risperdal is not working for her and she needs another drug or one in addition. My son is on two different anti-psychotics and does well with the mix.

You may want to get the treatment guidelines available at http://www.thebalancedmind.org/site/DocServer/treatment_guidelines.pdf?d... share them with your doctor and see if this doesn't help.

Hang in there we are here for you whenever you need to vent. (((hugs)))

Eileen

The Balanced Mind Foundation Parent to Parent Volunteer

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Response (3.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-04-02 11:39:47

She sounds like she has never really been stable. I would look at placing her at RTC or phosp and finding out what is really going on. Meridell has been great with their testing and medication changes. My DD has been in phosp 5 times and RTC 3 times this school year alone! YOu can't go on like this. Advocate for her to get her some help. Placing her in a foster home is not the answer. She needs to be somewhere that is trained in treating kids like her. You may also want to look at a self-contained emotionally disturbed class for school. I would get her OFF the ADHD meds and try to get her on 2 mood stabilizers and a different anti-psychotic. If your current pdoc isn't willing to make the changes, find one who is.

Lots of ((((((hugs)))))! I know how hard it is!

Will keep you in my prayers!

Cyndi

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Response (4.)... by lgarner2@cox.net - 2008-04-04 13:30:07

What is RTC and phosp, i have not heard of any of these

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Response (4.1.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-04-04 13:34:51

I'm sorry. RTC is residential treatment center and phosp is psychiatric hospital. Phosp is usually short-term, 1-3 weeks for medication adjustment when they are unstable (a danger to themselves or others). RTC is longer-term, anywhere from 3 weeks to a couple of years. Most are funded through private insurance, but some take medicaid or work on referrals through state agencies like Mental Health Mental Retardation programs.

I will keep you in my prayers!

Cyndi

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Response (5.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-04 14:18:01

I am hearing that you are trying hard to get support for you and your daughter but I am not hearing that your getting any advice from the professionals you've been too. Where do you live? I'm a little confused how they would send her to a foster home before she would be sent to a hospital. How old is she and does she have any problems at school?

My son did all the same things you are mentioning when I first had him hospitalized. He had been on zoloft and adderall. The first thing they did was to put him on lithium and stop the other two.

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Response (5.1.)... by lgarner2@cox.net - 2008-04-05 22:59:36

I sent my first respose to the wrong person I live in Pittsburg, Ks she is almost 11 on the 25th this month and she does have some problems in school but not like at home, but her grades have went up a grade since IEP and special ED and foster care they wanted her in neutral grounds, I don't know why they wouldn't hospitalize her.

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Response (6.)... by kalee - 2008-04-04 23:00:24

I'm sorry your daughter is having such problems... One med I picked up on was Clonodine. For most kids it is benign but it caused night terrors and hallucinations in my son. I agree with above posts about the other meds. Usually no stimulants are used until the bipolar is addressed and then some kiddos still can't handle stims.

You sound fairly new here so you may also want to join a Support Group. You would be placed with other parents who have kiddos about the same age as yours and probably have a lot of the same problems. Just click on 'Support Groups' to the left and fill out the form. It has been a big help for me along with this board!

Good Luck & Big Hugs,

Kathy

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Response (6.1.)... by lgarner2@cox.net - 2008-04-05 22:49:35

I live in Pittsburg Kansas, My daughter is almost 11 (4/25/97). She has had some problems at school but all they really see is anxiety, and the teacher has caught her in many lies, and low self esteem, she was finally put in special ed and IEP, and her grades have went up a whole grade in all of her classes. The foster care thing, I don't understand either she was placed in custody that day because of out of controll behavior and they were investigating me for abuse because she said I hit her, because her real dad told her to say that, but when not around her dad her story changed, but when she was put into custody they wanted family placement but the only family around here is my x husband, and his mom and dad, and my x was abusive to them in the past, and charged, and his mother does nothing but talk negative about me in front of the child, so they wanted her to go to neautral grounds. Just to let U know my x was said to have a chemical imbalance when tested after abusing the kids & he still says nothing is wrong and his mother is really depressed and takes medicine for that and anxiety and for sleep. I have just recently changed psyciatrists and psychologists, and they are doing more & explaining more than the others, & is in the process of gradually taking her off medication to start with something new.

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Response (6.1.1.)... by lgarner2@cox.net - 2008-04-05 23:10:25

I sent U the wrong message earlier. They have recently last friday taken her off the clonidine and cut back the risperdal after seeing a video of her choking herself & yelling I want to die over & over, the stimulants she has been on for about five years now way before she was diagnosed with bipolar, she was diagnosed just about 2 months ago with bipolar, the risperdal anti psychotic, was started before I swithed psychiatrists, he is starting to look at new options and is gradually taking away medicine & dosages to begin something else. My daughter has always had nightmares even before the medicine when she slept, she had insomnia before the medicine, but the doctor replaced the clonidine with melatonin, and she is sleeping and she is waking up a little more refreshed

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Response (6.1.1.1.)... by kalee - 2008-04-06 10:38:43

I'm so glad the melatonin is working for her. It's great when a supp like that works instead of a heavy med! My ds takes it and does very well now - no night terrors either. He was also having night terrors before any meds - UGH. They are so scary.

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DISCUSSION: stubborn 4 yr old 2008-04-01 08:32:31 2008-03-31 16:58:59

Hi! I am completely new to this web site but have found it very helpful. Our 4 yr old daughter has just been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. As we are by no means new to this disorder (many of our children have it as does my husband)I know from experience this is a correct diagnoses. We are trying a different kind of treatment with her that our LCSW told us about. My problem is that there is a powder she needs to take and she absolutely will not take it!!!!!!!!!

We've tried mixing it in her food, but she's gotten to the point that she isn't eating much any more (We've been trying this just 3 days,now) We have 7 kids and I feel we are pretty seasoned parents, but this one has me stumped. I know that ultimately I can't force her to take this but even our attempts at withholding privileges isn't helping, she'll just go without whatever. I never realized she could be this stubborn! I have just ordered a few books that I hope will help us parent her better, but until they arrive...any suggestions? Thanks so much and God Bless all of us who are hurting and trying to cope with what lands hands us. Terri

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by michasmom - 2008-03-31 18:13:23

Terri,

Is there a drink or a soda you can mix it in that she really enjoys? Other than that, I cannot offer any ideas. I live with one of those as well, and it can try the patience of a saint.

Chandra

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Response (1.1.)... by zbarbuff@vcn.com - 2008-03-31 18:32:24

Thanks for your suggestion, Chandra. I have tried putting it in her favorite juice with no luck. I did have a little bit of success today. She just decided that, okay, this time I'll take it. But here we are again and she is refusing again! She really likes to go swimming with me so I told her that she can earn a sticker for each day she takes her "medicine" and when she earns 3, we'll go swimming. I guess we'll just keep plugging along. Maybe the book I just ordered,"The explosive child", will have some tips.

Terri

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Response (1.1.1.)... by pumpkin - 2008-03-31 18:47:03

What is the powder? Did you taste the powder yourself? I ask because I remember my daughter refusing to take some medicine (liquid antibiotics)at about the same age. My husband told me to make her stay in the car in the garage in her car seat until she took it. She sat out there for sooooo long and still refused! So, I decided to taste her medicine and it was terrible. I had no idea how bad it was and just assumed it was her being the problem. When I realized the problem, then got a different med that tasted better and then she was OK to take it. Just wanted to share my story in case it helps you. If the powder has no taste, then you can hide it in something else easily w/out her seeing you. My guess is the powder tastes bad to her. Just a thought.

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Response (2.)... by nancyo - 2008-03-31 18:53:58

You can buy empty capsules and stuff powdered medication in them. If it isn't a lot of powder and/or your daughter can swallow pills it might be an option.

Nancy

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Response (3.)... by rnmomo2@yahoo.com - 2008-03-31 20:13:20

Why is she not eating much? Is she anxious? I went through this with my son and we had to give him Ativan prior to meals so that he could eat and take his medicine. DO you think the medicine is upsetting her stomach or causing other side effects and perhaps this is why? Regardless, it sounds as if you will have to change her medicine - perhpas an oral suspension or liquid form?

Bonnie

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Response (4.)... by tangles - 2008-03-31 23:12:19

How about adding it to a mint chocolate chip milkshake with extra chocolate!...and a quarter for each successful dose.

And if you want to go the healthy route try frozen yoguart and strawberries instead.

tangles

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Response (5.)... by zbarbuff@vcn.com - 2008-04-01 00:23:54

Thanks for all your help with this matter. To answer some of the questions...it's not even a medicine per se that i'm trying to give her, it's called empower plus powder from true hope. I know it doesn't bother her tummy because she hasn't had enough for it to have bothered her. I did taste it and it does have a taste but I didn't think it tasted bad. I never thought that maybe just because I think it tasted okay doesn't mean she does. So..we talked about it tonight when she was calm and she did tell me that she doesn't like the taste so we agreed to put it in some 7up. Once in the morning and once in the evening. However, the mint shake sunds really good so we may try that too!Thanks again, Terri :smile:

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Response (6.)... by jistac - 2008-04-01 08:32:31

Hi,

You might want to visit the Complementary and Alternative medicine board on this web site. We have many parents who are using this treatment successfully with their children and they may have a ton of ideas. One of the moms is a psychologist who has been part of the conference calls Truehope runs for medical professionals and so she has heard all sorts of ideas.

One of the neatest ideas I heard recently involved flavored capsules that you can buy.

I sympathize with your daughter. I have a sensitive gag reflex and I find certain tastes unpalatable and impossible to get down. My youngest is the same way. And with him we struggled with antibiotics and medicines all the time.

I eventually got him to swallow small tiny pills easily. Come visit us over at the CAM Board and maybe others can pitch in with ideas

Jistac

CAM Board Moderator

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DISCUSSION: Just tonight 2008-04-04 13:02:44 2008-04-02 21:04:28

Goodnight little boy, it only took an hour to get you to go to sleep tonight. Your nightlight is on, the door is cracked, and you have all six blankets tucked around you and no sheet. Your feet are sticking out and you have your soft cotton jammies on. No, you arent going to die tonight, your sugar is fine. The fridge is locked as well as the cabinets. The dresser has been checked to make sure you havent hidden any food for a midnight carbo binge. The doors have been all locked and the light is on in the kitchen. Have I done enough to keep the monsters at bay tonight? The laundry is piled high, the bills higher but your meds are set out, your insulin and test kit ready for the morning, your bowl for your cereal with the spoon with the just right size is on the counter. Your clothes are laid out, socks with no nubbies and shoes with untied laces. Backpack by the door, homework half done and prayers have been said. Im too tired to think of anything else. I cant fight this fight anymore, I cant fight one more social worker, insurance company, make one more appointment, schedule one more thing. Decide weather or not its safe enough to take you to the grocery store, oh please let me get this done we are running out of everything. Im sorry we have to go to court again, its not my fault, its not yours either. Your dad just doesnt care and has left you again for the fourth time in your life. I am going to try to prevent him from doing it again as I have tried many times before. 48 hours a month does not constitute a dad. You have a dad, hes the one who does your homework and sits with you in crisis and takes you to therapy. Thats your dad..hes a good man, he may yell but he doesnt leave you. He trys hard to keep a roof over our heads. NO you cant have a candy bar, no Im not going to buy a toy, go ahead and threaten to run away, tell me you hate me, throw that rage in the store. Ive been there done that, the stares dont bother me anymore. I know you have a disease where there is no end, but I have hope, it may be in my toes but I have some, I couldnt keep going on if I didnt. Tomorrow I will start again, an hour to get you out of bed, fight with you to brush your teeth (yes I know you dont like the feel of the brush), pray the clothes are still okay, the cereal the right one, the milk cold enough, your backpack not to tight. I will go to work and wait for the phone call that always comes, the nurse to tell me your sugar is high, low or you are refusing your meds, the teacher that you are acting out, and the social worker that she is concerned. I will make those appointments I didnt get done today and somehow manage to get my own work done. I will come home and make dinner just so I can hear you tell me you hate it and start bedtime again. Maybe tomorrow I will get to those bills, that laundry; maybe I will make a cup of tea or take a walk. Maybe I will just fall into bed exhausted. But know this. I would not trade any of my days for anything (well maybe 8 hours of sleep) for without all of our trials I would not appreciate your smile, your laugh, your good moments, your attempts to tell really bad jokes, your crooked smile in your sleep. For all the worry and fear I feel everyday my love for you is stronger than you think. I will not give up, I will not give in and god forbid you give in one day I will know in my heart that I have done everything to help you, to give you a childhood and to teach you that yes you are special, you are a bipolar child and you are amazing and you are mine. Goodnight little boy. Mommy loves you like no one else can.

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-04-02 21:45:13

Just when I thought I had made it through a day without tear, I read your post! You are an awesome, awesome mom! I will print this and pass it around. It needs to be up there with another of my favorites, "A Terrible Wish".

God Bless!

Cyndi

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Response (1.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-03 17:24:16

Tears here too! And a ((((((BIG HUG))))))for us all!!!!

Love & Peace,

Cheri

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Response (2.)... by esnowbear@comcast.net - 2008-04-03 11:42:58

I have tears also! That sums it up soo well! Thank you for sharing that! It is sure amazing how much we love our kids. You are a great mom!

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Response (3.)... by andyl - 2008-04-03 13:40:30

Thanks for a much needed message! Who says God doesn't hear our prayers!

Andrea

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Response (4.)... by lgarner2@cox.net - 2008-04-04 13:02:44

I am a very strong person, but this made me cry my eyes out, because I do the same thing everyday, with my almost 11 yr old girl, it really hit home but the way you put it out there made it hit even harder, God bless u 4 putting it so well & letting everyone else out there know what parents with bp kids go through

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DISCUSSION: Zachary 2008-04-02 21:25:41 2008-04-02 21:25:41

Well, Zachary has been on Lamictal for a week now at 25mg/day. No side effects! YAY!! Today we increased the dose to 25mg twice a day. Hopefully we won't see any side effects. But I'll be looking for them. I know that according to many on this board...my son's dosage might be a little high. But like I said....no side effects yet. I know that it will take awhile to get to a therapeutic dose. I'm just anxious about it. I finally have some hope that things will get better.

Rachael. Mother of Zachary, age 5.

Anxiety and Depression. Very probable BP.

25mg. Lamictal 2x/day. Fish oil

RESPONSES:

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DISCUSSION: Developmental issues 2008-04-09 18:03:07 2008-04-03 07:29:36

My 16 yr old son is having a bad year and his pdoc feels that developmental delay has a lot to do with his lack of coping skills. It was interesting that he said this because I watched the clip of the 16 yr old bipolar boy on The Mike and Julia show and he seemed so much more mature and articulate than my son. I have had my son test 2x with a neuropsychologist and he definitely has a devicit in executive functioning. Is this something that will improve with maturity?

I would love to find him some type of a social skills person but I really don't know where to begin. The mental health services that had provided one in the past is no longer available. I feel that his social problems are due to his misunderstanding ques and taking everything literal. He is very hard to rationalize with.

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by kotocat - 2008-04-03 08:50:28

I too am concerned with the same thing. I posted in the educational section and only one person responded,which I appreciated. I joined starfish advocacy and still remain confused. I've somewhat learned what should be addressed but there isn't any ways,procedures,or particular therapy on how to address this issue.

I live in a rural area that hasn't any services. (drs are 70 miles away) The school has limited resources ,although this issue is adressed in her IEP, and we are all confused on what to offer. My child has been in cognitive therapy for close to five years. We have seen a steady decline in her exucutive functions and other social aspects. She is currently stable on Lamictal, Trileptal, and Abilify. Her Drs can not commit if it's the disease process or effects from the medications.

Issues that need addressing:

Learning to decode facial expressions.

Learning hoe to interpret social situations.

Determing whether a topic is appropriate for discussion.

Any suggestions for Bigbird and I ???

PS. Social stories has been suggested to the school.But doubt they get it!

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Response (1.1.)... by gorman@cybermesa.com - 2008-04-03 21:37:14

The issues that need addressing here could be written about my son. His recent diagnosis of Nonverbal Learning Disorder explained a big piece of the puzzle for me. I'd go read about NVLD here:

http://www.nldontheweb.org/

I'm certainly not saying your child might be NVLD, but there are lots of articles and resources on there. A big part of the NVLD is the inability to read facial expressions, body language, and the complete lack of understanding of social mores.

Erika

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Response (1.1.1.)... by kotocat - 2008-04-03 23:15:09

Thanks This site will help assist me with the next IEP meeting. Everyone has been so helpful.I knew all the informed parents could put their heads together and help me figure this out!

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Response (2.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-03 09:59:22

I was surfing the web and came across this article. It is unclear as to help improve this but I will print it out and give it to my son's school therapist and his personal therapist. My son has been in therapy for 12 years!

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Response (3.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-03 09:59:55

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/457153 or you can just google

Impaired Cognition in Bipolar Disorder: Something to think about

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Response (4.)... by kotocat - 2008-04-03 10:47:31

I checked out the site. Signed up on Med scape and hope they do not send lots of unwanted Emails. Nevertheless, I read the article and have read simular that supports the negative impact these medications have on their cognitive skills . This article included what medications seem to fair better in avoiding distruptions in the social and emotional functioning. I am reluctant to request any changes with her meds that are known to create cognitive dulling. Shes somewhat stable and it took four years to get this combination right. What we need is some way to apply social skills training within the school setting that is specific to the known "quirks" our children have. Any ideas???

Appreciate your time Bigbird. Keep me informed.

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Response (5.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-03 11:20:14

There is no way I would start changing my son's meds. If it is the meds (which I doubt it is all it is) then hopefully he will learn how to compensate. WE have his CSE meeting next week and I am going to inquire what we could add to his IEP to help with these issues. He does do a life skills class every day and does very well in it.

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Response (6.)... by rnmomo2@yahoo.com - 2008-04-03 17:21:48

An agency that deals with autism. You can check with the district social worker too. Kids with autism, as well as those with learning disabilities, ADHD, and psychiatric disorders may all have issues with social skills. My sister's 20 yr old daughter who has a nonverbal learning disorder see a "life skills coach". I am not sure how she found them (I think through the schools and college she attends). She is in Columbus, OH. I live in NJ and am fortunate to have private therapists in my town who do social skills training. My son has been going for over a year now.

Best wishes,

Bonnie

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Response (7.)... by kotocat - 2008-04-03 19:19:17

What a great idea! I will check in to Autism resources tommorrow. Hopefully I will be able to something . Maybe NAMI might know of something.

Thanks so much for taking the time Bonnie

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Response (8.)... by sunshine - 2008-04-03 22:53:57

You might also want to do a little research into Asperger's Syndrome and/or PDD-NOS, both of which are on the autism spectrum. The symptoms you describe are typical among people with Asperger's.

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Response (9.)... by mom2one - 2008-04-03 23:13:45

Hi Bigbir & Kotocat,

I wish I could answer your question! I have the same issues with my 15 yr. old ds who has developmental delays.

I suggest looking into a social skills class/group that your ds would benefit from at school. Most high schools have different groups. Talk to your school counselor. If your son has a 504 or an IEP, social skills should be addressed there. I just googled "iep that address social skills" and came up with a bunch of information.

My son now attends a small therapeutic school where all students have some form of disability. His school prepares students for life with training in academics, job skills and with direct instruction in daily living skills in an atmosphere that cannot easily be duplicated in many other schools. In this setting, his social skills have improved greatly! For him, he has felt at home being around other kiddos with many various disabilites.

Keep us posted!

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Response (10.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-09 14:07:38

today. I'm very glad that I brought this up at his meeting and I requested the district pay for a neuropsych exam. (I had paid for the previous two, one in 2006 and the other in 2001.) It is very expensive and I figured I would try again with the district.

What I did point out is that 1. he is in a therapeutic school for emotional problems 2. He is going through a school refusal. He appears stable in other ways. MY point was are we overlooking his learning disabilities by assuming they are all due to emotional problems?

I don't know if this makes sense to any of you but somehow the SE committee got my drift. They agreed to have the nerop eval and an auditory processing eval. They also are willing to put him in a 6:1:1 instead of a 8:1:1 and he is still on the regents track.

I couldn't have been more pleased with the outcome of this meeting. I will keep you posted on his results.

I did learn a lesson, keep asking and sometimes the district will surprise you!

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Response (11.)... by kotocat - 2008-04-09 15:33:47

Great advocating. I would be so, so proud of myself if I have any simular results at my upcoming IEP meeting. Whats your secret?

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Response (12.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-09 18:03:07

Prayer!

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DISCUSSION: DD coming home from Meridell Saturday... 2008-04-05 23:52:50 2008-04-03 21:39:00

Well, they denied Taryn any days at Meridell past this Saturday, so we're bringing her home. We could appeal again, but the pdoc feels like she is clinically stable and will be ok for discharge. If she starts showing ANY signs of instability, we will take her back to the phosp and then insist that she be transferred back to Meridell. We didn't really get the answers that we were hoping for. I still haven't seen the neuropsych eval, yet. Her QEEG was "inconclusive" both times they did it. Oh well, Taryn has been a mystery since birth and continues to still be so. At least she is on a completely different medication regimen of Amantadine, Trileptal, Seroquel and clonidine. The amantadine seems to be a wonderful med for kids like her. I surprised I don't see it mentioned more often here.

I hate the way insurance companies control everything! It's kind of ironic that I work for a insurance company (third party administator, at least), yet I have nothing good to say about health insurance. The difference with my company is that they are self-funded, employer plans and nothing is really written in stone. Because it's each employer's money and they make their own rules, they can choose to cover basically whatever they want. We make "benefit plan exceptions" all the time. In fact, my job is to advocate for the patient's for them to get the care they need. Come next month, May 1st, I'm going to put the girls on my insurance and it will be primary over my husband's plan. They will be doubled-covered and my boss, the managed care supervisor, will be the one making the decisions for their care. The only problem is that my plan does not usually cover residential treatment, though they can make an exception by saying that it is "less costly" than in-patient acute care and "more like to produce a positive outcome than a negative one". I guess we'll see if that helps us to get the care that the girls need without having to fight so desperately for it! We've never tried double-covering them before.

Anyway, I will let yall know how it's going when we get home. We weren't even given the opportunity for a off-campus pass to test her before they discharge her. It's totally crazy! Meridell said that we could choose to pay privately, at $420/day, if we wanted to! Ya, right! We have to scrape pennies together just to keep food on the table because of all our medical bills!

Ok, I'm done venting! Keep us in your prayers as we bring her home and she gets readjusted to "life in the real world".

Cyndi

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by mom2one - 2008-04-03 22:19:38

Wow, good news she's coming home and doing so much better! We tried Amantadine, for side effects (tremor) and it worked well...better than Cogentin. Are you using it for side effects or impulse control, what? Often it takes a very good pdoc to think outside the box when needed and try other types of meds when someone has been through so many failed med trials. Sometimes it is that odd med mix that becomes the best med combo.

Be sure to chart! Charting is the only way I know how to become more objective. Charting helped us find the subtle changes that made all the difference.

I've mentioned this before in other posts...forgive me if I've already mentioned this to you. One thing we did was to stop looking for large improvement and look for small areas that could improve function/mood. For example, exercise, diet, regular sleep habits, therapy, etc. While it is true that none of those areas are going to "fix" the mood problems, they can contribute to being able to handle it better. If you can find 5 areas that make a 5% improvement then you are looking at 25% improvement and that's HUGE for a kid who isn't responding otherwise. It takes time for all the little things to accumulate.

In therapy I suggest focusing in finding ways to cope with symptoms that don't appear to be going away, as well as sorting out learned and habitual dysfunctional behavior from actual symptoms.

I'm really glad to hear that you had neuropsych testing done. For us, it helped connect the dots. Do share the information with her school and update her IEP based upon the results, if there is one.

If you don't have something to use as a PRN, I suggest asking for one.

I'm also glad to hear that they will gladly take her back, if needed. I pray she continues to stabilize.

Keep us posted!

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Response (1.1.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-04-03 22:50:01

They put her on the amantadine for impulse control, rages and getting "stuck" on things and ideas. It is used quite a bit at Meridell and with good success. They say it helps make those "connections" in the frontal lobe of her brain that she can't make on her own. Within 2 days of starting it, they started to notice a big difference in her. Another thing they do at Meridell is "push the envelope" on Trileptal dosages. She is now on 900mg twice a day. That is quite a lot for a 93 pound 13 yr old. They seem to really know how to treat the "brain disorder", not just the behavior. For a PRN med, they tried her on Visteril and it worked better than anything else has for PRN on her. It calms her without disinhibiting her or turning her into a zombie. Even though we didn't get the QEEG results that we were hoping for, they still say that she has a very definate neuropsych problem, based on her symptoms and history. I can't wait to read the full report. Normally you get it within the first couple of weeks there, but Taryn kept stumping them because she is so inconsistent with her behavior and answers. Even her IQ can vary by as much as 50 points from one day to the next! They entertained the idea that she could be showing signs of early schizophrenia, but until her behavior becomes more consistent (if it ever does!) it will be hard to tell.

Thanks for all your support! I don't know how I would have survived the last few months without this message board and the grace of God!

Cyndi

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Response (1.1.1.)... by gorman@cybermesa.com - 2008-04-05 21:18:35

Cyndi,

I forgot to mention this to you in my email, but Dr. Stone at Meridell called me and was explaining the use of Amantadine. He was saying that it is an old drug, and is used primarily in Parkinson's patients. He was telling me, because I'm a rank newbie, that Parkinson's effects the frontal lobe which controls the motor control that gets "stuck" and that they have a hard time starting and stopping movement. Because the frontal lobe also controls impulse control and executive functioning, some brilliant guy figured that if it worked to stimulate frontal lobe functioning in Parkinsons that maybe it would help people with issues like Taryn and Dane where there is some level of frontal lobe impairment. He wanted me to understand the drug because he said most other pdocs don't use it or know why, so that I'd need to advocate for him in the future regarding amantadine.

Because you are a nurse, Cyndi, you probably already knew all this stuff, but I thought I'd put it out there because it just made lots of sense to me. :)

Erika, New Mexico

Son, Dane, 11, BP, 750mg Lithium, 20 mg Abilify

Daughter, Kelsey, 16, no problems

Son, Ethan 18, No problems

StepSon Bill, 14, Hearing impaired

Husband, Bill, Saint

Tons of animals

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Response (2.)... by jamison - 2008-04-05 23:52:50

We started our DS on Amantadine last spring and it was like a miracle. This was the first time we saw our son stable and his executive functioning became normal and overall functioning became "normal" for the first time. After about 4 months he began to develop some troublesome side-effects. He developed lukemia like symptoms, his veins became real prominent purple dark/red over his whole body (he is quite fair). He was throwing up and lost a lot of weight. We had to discontinue. Our p-doc does use Amantadine a lot and our son has been the only one who wasn't able to tolerate it. The most positive thing was that it allowed us to see that our son could be stabilized.

Kind Regards,

Jami

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DISCUSSION: 20/20 2008-04-06 11:39:34 2008-04-04 14:51:14

20/20

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by andyl - 2008-04-04 16:49:29

I'm curious about how and why your family was contacted by 20/20. What is their angle and how do they want to portray the illness? I would also take your dd's age into consideration and what the reaction of family and friends would be. Good luck!

Andrea

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Response (2.)... by trehouse@optonline.net - 2008-04-04 16:52:43

I agree that we must bring light to this disease. However, I also feel strongly that our children have a right to their privacy. I think it must depend on the age of the child, and their ability to consent to this type of exposure.

If we don't take into account their ability to fully understand and consent to the exposure, then we are using them as "examples", and I feel we are not treating them as individuals, in my opinion...

Sam

Max, 6, Lamictal/Invega

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Response (3.)... by mom2one - 2008-04-04 17:32:12

Several years ago there was a The Balanced Mind Foundation family that appeared on 60 minutes. The program included several different scenes of the child's behavior. During one scene the child was raging. Another scene showed her raging with her cat in her hands. I'm not kidding when I say that within 2 days, the mother had CPS knocking on her door and an investigation began. Later that day animal control showed up to remove the cat from the home.

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Response (4.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-05 07:52:41

I would suggest they find a family that has an older child that has been through it and would agree to talk about it. The show that had the 16 year old on with his mother was very good.

http://www.mandjshow.com/videos/teen-bipolar-disorder/

The mother had videotape of the son raging at six. I was so impressed with her son and I'm sure a lot of families felt relief when they saw how well he was doing.

When I played the segment from the show for my son (16) he said "I would never do that". I was a little surprised because he has been so open about his illness. He once did 4H project on bipolar and spoke about it.

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Response (4.1.)... by lj1964 - 2008-04-06 11:39:34

Thank you so much for the link to that video. I would definitely let people see this that don't understand this illness- this describes my dd to a "T". My mother always says how she can't understand bipolar. I think I'll forward this to her. Thanks again. :smile:

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DISCUSSION: 2nd child possible bipolar dx 2008-04-05 10:09:28 2008-04-04 15:29:02

My 10 yr old daughter has been dx with general anxiety disorder and ptss (past molestations by friend and 16yrcousin). Recently she has been exhibiting possible bp sym. and was put on seroquel (50 to sart and now 75) along with 20mg prozac begun last year.Yesterday during school she said she wanted to kill herself quietly at first and then it became a big scene in class. Her perception of reality is way off - for example she said all the kids were laughing at her while she was on the floor with a desk over her and the teacher said the kids were calma nd tried to ignore what was going on. She believes everyone hates her and tells lies about her. I know the pdoc (when we finally connect) will suggest a phosp. However we had a very bad experience with my older son and a phosp. I'm very unsure about sending her and my exh is definitely against it. I am going to try to work with the pdoc on stabilizing her outside of a phosp. Currently she will not be attending school until she is stable(school seems to be her trigger when she is unstable) This is her first episode. I guess I'm just needing support right now cuz' I was hoping she would not exhibit bp behavior. My son(14yr.old - dx as 12yrold) is doing very well on his meds and is able to tell me when he is cycling so meds can be adjusted immed. I'm feeling pretty frazzled right now. :chagrin:

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by andyl - 2008-04-04 16:46:55

I know how you feel, and that is with just one! My first thought was if bp is a possibility, then ask the doc about the prozac. My ds cannot use any ssri. We are trying buspar for the anxiety. This is a great place to come to vent and get support!

Andrea

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Response (2.)... by fizbin - 2008-04-04 21:04:36

Did the pdoc do a full evaluation of your daughter? If not I'd suggest that one gets done now or that a new one be done. I'd look to the Prozac, many kids cannot take an SSRI and see about adding a mood stabilizer. I think you may have a good idea about keeping her out of school but get a letter from your pdoc saying that she must be out for a time so you can get home tutoring and will not be subject to a truancy problem.

Hang in there and keep us posted

Eileen

The Balanced Mind Foundation Parent to Parent Volunteer

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Response (2.1.)... by tsprksfmly - 2008-04-04 22:51:40

My daughter has been seeing a counselor for the past 2 years when she bravely told me that a family friend(13 at the time) was having her do things she knew was not right. Her dads household was/is chaotic and she was dealing with that too. After about a year or so of counseling, my daughter was exhibiting other behavior and the counselor referred her to my sons pdoc. My daughter was given an extensive psychological exam to see if there was any underlying issues other than depression and anxiety before meds were prescribed - due to bp and adhd dx of my son. At that time the pdoc prescribed prozac and she continued to see both pdoc and counselor. In Nov. 07, she became angry, mean and her perception of reality was way off. The pdoc put her on 25mg of seroquel. A month later she was given 50mg of seroquel and in Feb. she was given 75mg of seroquel. We see pdoc every 4 to 6 weeks and we have been monitoring her for possible effects of the prozac. Her last checkup with the pdoc was 2 weeks ago and everything seemed fine until this week. My daughter is doing fine at the moment, I really believe she cannot handle school right now. When I talk with the pdoc, I know he will give me a letter to excuse her absences.I dont know about home tutoring. At the moment she does not qualify for special ed. and homebound is only provided through special ed. If I have misinfo. let me know and I will do research (go figure - I am a high school teacher). In Texas, she has to pass TAKS to move to 5th grade and those tests are coming up in 3 weeks. I hope we will be able to get her stable w/out going to the phosp.

Thanks for the support.

Terri

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Response (3.)... by fizbin - 2008-04-04 22:56:40

Home tutoring is for anyone who has a medical reason to be out of school. It doesn't require a special Ed designation. In any case it might be time to have an educational evaluation done so that appropriate accommodations, either a 504 plan or an IEP, can be made. If your daughter is having significant problems with school accommodations might help her to cope when she is ready to go back.

Eileen

The Balanced Mind Foundation Parent to Parent Volunteer

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Response (3.1.)... by tsprksfmly - 2008-04-04 23:38:35

I will check into the home tutoring. I have a student who has been out most of the year and i was told she could not receive homebound services because she was not special ed. and homebound was only serviced through special ed(our district is in a coop. so we share the homebound teacher with other districts). Another question, we live in a different district then where i teach. My kids go to school where I work. Would the district i work for service her or would i have to enroll her in our district?

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Response (4.)... by fizbin - 2008-04-05 10:09:06

I think you would enroll her in your district where you live. They would be the ones who are ultimately responsible. The rules may be different where you are but as far as I know you don't have to be special ed to get a tutor. After all they are responsible for providing an education for the child and if they can't go to school for whatever reason you would think a tutor would be the answer. Again if she is having as much trouble as she is then she could be classified as special ed because of her illness.

Good luck and keep us posted

Eileen

The Balanced Mind Foundation Parent to Parent Volunteer

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DISCUSSION: manipulation or anxiety 2008-04-02 20:06:47 2008-04-01 19:45:28

I see on one of the pages of the site there was a conversation about interpreting behaviour:manipulation or anxiety.

My son is crying every morning at school and the special ed teacher, whom I might add doesn't deal with my son,says she agrees with another teacher that he is manipulating. (this teacher never said this to me). I told them that there might be some manipulation,but I think it is mostly his illness.He cries on the bus from the minute he leaves the house. There's no one to manipulate there! This has happened the last 3 years so we think it's seasonal. Is there an article about this somewhere that I can show her to back up that he isn't doing this on purpose?

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by zbarbuff@vcn.com - 2008-04-02 07:51:39

Good Morning! It's only 5:41 where I am and I counldn't sleep so got up to see what's going on on the message board. I am very leary when someone says "manipulation" to me. For years, people thought my DS (13) was manipulating us and it turned out that he has anxiety disorder and the poor guy was really suffering. I really don't think that anyone who doesn't live with these disorders understands them at all. They may try, but living it is different. My 25 yr old BP son has just started putting together some seasonal things that have always gone on with him but he's just now realizing it really does have to do with seasonal changes. Our SW has suggested putting "grow lights" in his (son's) house. How old is your son? Does this only happen at certain times or all school year? Terri

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Response (2.)... by sue-nc - 2008-04-02 10:26:33

is this. Anxiety is a very difficult thing to live with on a daily basis. My son suffers from extreme anxiety and when he "manipulates" (I also hate that word) I believe that he is trying to gain some kind of control in anotherwise choatic world for him. When people tell me "he's just manipulating" I want to cry and scream at them but I don't. Think about it, anyone who spends all this time and all these years "manipulating", which makes me feel like they are intentionally doing things wrong, that is also a sickness. Can't people see how hard life is for these children? When they say that it implies that we somehow missed the boat on that and never thought about it. "Gee, I didn't think of that, he won't manipulate anymore. Thanks for setting me straight".....LOL Yes, my child manipulates or whatever you want to call it but I will go to my grave knowing that it's a coping strategy for him and not something that he wants to be doing. Of course, we parent that but it's all part of the deal. Poor things. I really wish there were a special place for these kids. A mini town so we can all be together, they would have a school of their own, a place where they all felt accepted and where we the caregivers/parents all could be together to help and support and encourge each other. Much like this cyber town....hang in there.

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Response (2.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-02 16:10:21

"I really wish there were a special place for these kids. A mini town so we can all be together, they would have a school of their own, a place where they all felt accepted and where we the caregivers/parents all could be together to help and support and encourge each other. Much like this cyber town....hang in there. "

I read this to my gang and we all agree- SIGN US UP FOR THAT PLACE TOO!!!!! :) :)

CHERI

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Response (3.)... by - 2008-04-02 11:52:33

http://www.cmha.bc.ca/resources/visions/anxiety

Another thing you might consider is food sensitivities. I would always make a "healthy" breakfast on school days - e.g.eggs, pancakes, cereal with milk...the usual. And she would always develop stomach aches, not want to go to school etc. etc. that I thought was anxiety or school avoidance. Poor little titch - turns out she has significant sensitivities to cow dairy, egg whites and wheat...so of course she always had a stomach ache and felt sick. Heavens only knows what it did to her GI system. Good news is she is now pretty well off these foods and it has made a world of difference forher physical and mental health.

Your dr. might offer these kind of tests, but we had to go to a naturopath. I really regret that I didn't even think about this back then. There is no know family history, and regular dr's never picked up on possibility despite our bringing symptoms to their attention. So,,,something to think about.

Best,

Rebecca

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Response (4.)... by givnmegryhr - 2008-04-02 13:01:25

As far as food goes, it's hard to get him to eat in the mornings because he is so anxious so sometimes he doesn't eat until he's at school and then he has snacks which I read is common in anxiety disorder. He doesn't complain of stomach aches so I know it's not celiac disease(my daughter was tested for this -intolerence to gluten, wheat) so we know all about that. He's 9 and it starts about the beginning of Feb. and will usually last until the end of the school year. This teacher that said there is manipulation going on says so because he can"turn it off and on". I think that has something to do with the bp. Could his anxiety also cycle? Plus I was thinking well I'm sure he takes a break from crying every once in a while when this goes on. It must be exhausting.If there is something that distracts him for a moment then yes , I believe he would "turn it off". I can't wait til schools out. I can't believe I just said that!

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Response (4.1.)... by - 2008-04-02 14:25:28

Sorry, I don't know your particulars or if your child has been seen by by a child psychiatrist specializing in mood and anxiety disorders? Have they been diagnosed?

The psychiatrist or recommended therapist would be the ones to help you and teachers work up a IEP to try and accomodate and work with your son's difficulties. Anxiety is often co-morbid with bipolar disorder, in fact abnormalities of the hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal axis, with associated high cortisol (stress hormone) has been identified as a typical feature of bipolar disorder. If your son's anxiety subsides when he is distracted or engaged, I would think that is a good thing, not manipulative.

I don't know about your teacher's specific qualifications, but in our area special ed teachers are are not specifically trained in mood or anxiety disorders, and so their interpretation about what is manipulation and what is illness would not be especially accurate or useful.

Re food sensitivities, Just for general info, not replying to your own situation, my daughter was also tested for celiac and it was negative. So her food sensitivites are on the spectrum, not true allergies, but health affecting even so. My personal feeling is that the sensitivities created many problems, including eating disorder issues that she is in the process of resolving now, but that could have been avoided had we known about this subject earlier and tested for it.

Best,

Rebecca

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Response (4.1.1.)... by - 2008-04-02 15:29:21

Starfish advocacy http://www.starfishadvocacy.org/ may be able to help you navigate school system etc. and get beyond the "manipulation theory" stage with them. It is a great resource.

Rebecca

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Response (5.)... by rnmomo2@yahoo.com - 2008-04-02 20:06:47

Everyone manipulates, but it's not necessarily a bad thing. If you're in a bad situation, you do things to get out of that situation. It's only when you don't want to do school work or insist on doing games instead that it is a negative thing. He is trying to cope with anxiety the only way he knows how. He should be able to leave the classroom to regroup (this is in my son's IEP) - there are a lot of things the school can do.

I have heard the word "manipulation" so many times too. So then I ask the school why they think he's being manipulative since he gets good grades and likes school when he is not feeling afraid or anxious. That turns it on them and I no longer hear those quite as often. I always turn it back to them and point out that my son is generally well behaved and cooperative. WHen they begin to shrug their shoulders instead of blaming me or my son, then I explain about BP disorder as it is then that they are open to it.

My son's condition started with the separation anxiety and school refusal - he still has it from time to time. I believe there is some literature somewhere on the www that talks about separation anxiety as part of childhood bipolar disorder.

Good luck

Bonnie

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DISCUSSION: dd dx'd w/adhd-- i am unsure about bp 2008-04-02 17:11:05 2008-03-29 21:17:47

hi, my dd is 5yr. old and was just dx with adhd. i have a son 7yrs. bp/adhd who takes tenex, risperdol, strattera, abilify, and lithium. they just put my dd on concerta. today was the first day taking it and she was sooooo moody. she screamed and threw stuff, and flew all over the ground because her dad left w/o her. ok then she was fine. next was something else minor, but to her it was major, she seemed less active accept she was alot more moody. i am not used to having someone JUST adhd, but i am not sure what to expect. does anyone have experience with this? i wonder if there is underlying bp also. how would i know? should i give the meds more time? see how sunday goes? before she was put on the meds she was very much out of control, like, hitting her dad, brother, bosses people around, talks back to people, kicks or slaps the cat. but at school the teacher says she is fine, no signs of anything. i hate to say it but i can't even stand to be with her sometimes. she does NOT care about anything she tells me. it breaks my heart. but then she can be soo sweet and cuddley. i have no where else to go to talk about this. i want opinions and thoughts please!! thanks pam

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by fizbin - 2008-03-29 22:31:22

I would do a mood chart on her. It can't hurt and it might tell you if this is med related. Then I'd go to the doctor with the chart and show the results. This will help both you and the pdoc as you try to decide what is going on.

Eileen

The Balanced Mind Foundation Parent to Parent Volunteer

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Response (2.)... by michasmom - 2008-03-29 22:42:27

Pam,

I agree with the mood chart. You may be seeing signs of a mood disorder is the adhd meds are making her more moody and volitile. My dd tried focalin at age 5 prior to the bp dx. She was so aggresive and uncontrolable. We knew at that time that stimulants were not the answer for her.

Chandra

PS Keep asking questions, that is how you get the answers. :grin:

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Response (3.)... by smallmom - 2008-03-30 09:11:19

Pam,

What kind of doctor dxed your DD's ADHD? What kind of testing was done to determine the dx?

Generally, ADHD is suspected when a child goes to school and can't attend to schoolwork. The fact that she's fine in school makes me suspicious that you're looking at something beyond ADHD.

Concerta and other ADHD stimulants can exacerbate pre-existing anxiety. Perhaps that's why your DD's more moody on it?

Here's a link to the diagnostic criteria for ADHD:

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/symptom.htm

Do you think she meets the criteria?

Julia in MD

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Response (4.)... by pammypoo - 2008-03-30 09:44:11

thanks julia for the link to criteria for adhd. and yes and no are the signs all there. the pediatrician is the one who dx'd her but i took her with me to my son's pdoc appt and she is the 1st one that thought my dd had adhd, pdoc told me to make an appt to have dd evaluated. well in the mean time dd had check up at pediatrician so i asked her what she thought, she said definately dd has adhd. no real tests were done to dx this. stimulants were not good for my son either, thats what makes me wonder if we have the right dx. thank you all!!

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Response (5.)... by smallmom - 2008-03-30 10:49:33

Pam,

We have a wonderfully thorough and competent ped. He refuses to dx ADHD himself because he believes that's beyond his expertise. He refers all kids suspected of having ADHD to a neuropsychologist. The symptoms of many childhood disorders (including anxiety, depression, BP, learning disabilities and ASD) overlap with the symptoms of ADHD. It's challenging for even the best of clinicians to figure it all out.

In your shoes, I would listen to the pdoc and take your DD for a thorough eval. And I would wait to medicate until you truly know exactly what's going on with her.

Julia in MD

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Response (5.1.)... by kotocat - 2008-03-30 11:20:04

We brought our child in to be evaluated by a developmental Neurologist. If you are financially able to do this it can to be quite helpful and a good investment.

Just my experiences.

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Response (6.)... by pammypoo - 2008-03-30 11:50:10

thank you all for the suggestions!! i definately will have her thoroughly evaluated, knowing what i went through with my son is reason enough to do it. if i can somewhat avoid that again its worth an office visit with the pdoc. pam

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Response (7.)... by ksmith2793@sbcglobal.net - 2008-04-02 17:11:05

HI Pam............

I post on the support group a lot, but in reading the message board I saw your post.

One of the moms posted this fantastic link, and I thought it would really help you and your daughters Dr.

http://www.adhdnews.com/bipolar.htm

Take care,

-Kathleen

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DISCUSSION: Residential Treatment IN the Milwaukee area 2008-04-04 12:15:42 2008-03-13 21:39:46

Has anyone here had experience with Residential Care in the Milwaukee area. My 13 yr old granddaughter has been hospitalized 4 times since Dec 1. The outpatient program kept her for 2 days and are now recommending residential treatment for her. Is this a temporary thing and does it help significantly ---- she is prone to extreme tantruming when agitated and has extreme anxiety and seperation issues. I do not see how this could be helpful to seperate her from her family. Her diagnosis are PTSD,a mood disorder, generalized anxiety disorder. Would appreciate any and all feedback.

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by robin-wi - 2008-03-14 21:39:30

Mamawi I am so sorry to hear that she needs residential. (((Hugs))). I know we just talk not long ago did not know it was to this point. Wow! I Hope she doesn't need residential it is hard to get into residential and need to do a chips petition as well which means cps will be involved. What does her pdoc think about this? Does she believe it is to the point of residential. I believe residential can be 6 to 9 months or longer. When old pdoc try to do this that was the first thing he did was call cps and they just gave us more in home help. They said you have to use every resource up before they even consider residential and have to go to court to get a chips petition. We never had to go that far the in home was alot of help. And finding the right meds and pdoc was key.

Good luck

Robin

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Response (2.)... by mom2one - 2008-03-14 21:55:46

I know your dg has been in and out of Roger's. Have you ever thought about hospitalizing her in Madison at Meriter? Have you ever looked into pdocs up there? The head medical director for Meriter's Child/Adolescent Psychiatric Hospital is the doctor who spoke at the CESA seminar that we went to in Milton. He's wonderful!

There is no doubt if I had continued to have taken my ds to Roger's he would not be with us. Meriter and his pdoc in Madison have saved his life, seriously! I have found Madison to be full of extremely well educated and top notch docs.

As for residential in our area, the only thing I can think of would be St. Coletta's (I believe it is for adults only) and Mendota State Hospital. Dept. of Health and Human Services should be able to help you. If I remember correctly, isn't she covered under Katie Beckett? If so, contact your consultant. It is also my understanding as well that you need to go through the CPS route with in-home therapy before residential is granted. Someone at Children's Hospital and even someone at the outpatient program your gd is in should have referrals.

I hope your gd is on the road to stability soon!

Hugs,

Jackie (WI)

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Response (3.)... by mamaw-wi - 2008-03-15 00:14:55

Hey Jackie ----

Is that really you with a different name? I just asked Robin about you tonight and she told me this was it --- bingo I came to the board and you were there. Would love to chat with you. How can we get in touch? I never see anyone on chat anymore --- too bad it was a good group. The new format seems to be working better. DG is having a rough time --- she will be 13 next week and I expect that is part of the problem. She is hospitalized right now at Aurora in Milwaukee. It is the 4th time since Dec 1. Its been quite the experience! Let me know how I can reach you or perhaps get together on Chat. TY for your reply! :smile:

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Response (3.1.)... by mom2one - 2008-03-15 14:58:27

Please feel free to e-mail me at

j_erdman@charter.net

Just put bpkids in the subject line.

Look forward to hearing from you!

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Response (4.)... by robin-wi - 2008-03-15 10:00:59

Yea Jackie we were talking about how much we missing talking with you and can't seem to get a hold of you. We were chatting on msn messenger last nite. My screen name is robin_milw_wi@hotmail.com for msn messenger. We love to chat with you if you have the time. We our chats. I try to come into chat and post that I am here. I get a few in the chatroom when I do that. Mamawi is really having a rough time right now and could use as much support as we can give her. Willy hasn't had inpatient since May 2006 been on the same meds since than. Marie she been a handful. Willy is 13 half and Marie is 10. We have more problems with her now. Feel free to email at robind@wi.rr.com

Thanks,

Robin from Milwaukee

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Response (4.1.)... by mom2one - 2008-03-15 15:04:23

Hi Robin,

Time restraints do not allow me to chat like I used to. I've been meaning to pop into chat, so I soon may surprise you!

I'm sorry you are having a tough time with Marie, but I'm thrilled to know that Willy is doing so much better.

David hasn't been hospitalized for 2 yrs. now! He's doing remarkably well on his med combo and he is now in a very small therapeutic school. We adjust his Lithium and Risperdal dosage seasonally for break through mania and psychosis. It's amazing how far he has come!

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Response (5.)... by jim_asker@yahoo.com - 2008-03-20 12:15:00

We live in Virginia, but have been advised that the residential treatment program at Rogers Milwaukee Hospital is excellent. We're considering it for our son, who is 17. There is a program for younger kids, also.

Jane

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Response (5.1.)... by mamaw-wi - 2008-04-03 12:35:24

Thanks for the note --- we are located in Wisconsin about 40 miles south of Milwaukee. Unfortunately Wisconsin does not yet have mental health parity so there is a strong possibility that my daughter's insurance will not pay for the program at Oconomowoc, WI that you are looking into.My granddaughter was hospitalized once several years ago in Rogers Hospital in Milwaukee itself and we were not happy, however I have heard that the program which you are looking at is a good one. I just wish we had that option available to us.Our granddaughter was discharged from the day treatment program at Rogers in Kenosha yesterday for kicking the social worker. Her Dr wanted her admitted to the inpatient Aurora Hospital program in Milwaukee but the admitting Dr at the hospital did not feel she qualified for inpatient at this time. She has been hospitalized there 5 times since December 1 for anywhere from 4 to 7 days each time ---- I say they would have been better off footing the bill for a month or 6 weeks at the residential facility where they could have observed her and regulated her meds but again this revolving door, piece meal care is due to the lack of a mental health parity bill in Wisconsin. The child suffers and she IS really trying to make her life work and it is ridiculous. I now have to travel 200 miles a day for a partial hospitalization program because mom is a single parent and must work. It is soooooooooo frustrating. I hope you have parity in your state and Good Luck with your son!!! :smile:

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Response (6.)... by nschiman - 2008-04-04 12:15:42

Who was the attending doctor at Aurora? We have used that Phosp twice (because that's the only one that our insurance will cover) with mediochre results. Both times it was certainly the right thing to do and both times it was to some degree the turning point to getting my kids better, but the doctors didn't have nearly the knowledge base about pediatric BP as our pdoc in Madison does. However, they were very willing to coordinate care with him so he was really calling the shots as far as treatment went.

Nanci S. (in the Milwaukee area)

The Balanced Mind Foundation Program Coordinator

nschiman@thebalancedmind.org

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DISCUSSION: I don't know. 2008-04-13 10:31:59 2008-03-19 14:20:19

Today I had to pick up my son from school. He was suspended. I dropped him off he was fine. Teacher called and said he wasn't feeling well. I wasn't sure what to think because I had just dropped him off and he was fine. So I told him to eat some snack and wait a bit then call back if he's still not feeling well. I got a call shortly after that reporting that he will be suspended for today and tomorrow for making threats, hitting staff, etc. He had to be restrained. Michael says that they were just going to let him die and were not getting him home fast enough. He says he could not breath right and was fighting to get away, throwing things, turning over desks, threatened to burn down the school, etc. He is at a special school already. The principal said that usually they would call the sheriff and have him cited but he wouldn't do it this time. But that from now on he will have to be searched when he comes to school. This is so scary to me. He is 10 years old and functioning pretty well at home. I don't even know if I should send him back. He's been practically to every non public school around here. I'm seriously considering an independant study or homescool program. Any advice welcomed. Steph

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by atiredparent - 2008-03-19 22:33:18

I am curious as to what meds he is on and does he have an IEP?

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Response (2.)... by stephanini@comcast.net - 2008-03-20 21:06:47

He is on Seroquoel 600 mg per day which has worked great until recently. Very stable at home. He does have an IEP. he has these "weird feelings" and says he can't breath right and then panics about it. His breathing looks normal. this was what was happening he says at school and he says they were just going to let him die. He says he was fighting to get away and call for someone else to help him. A new psychiatrist that we've seen only once has suggested we try an SSRI in addition to serquol, like Zoloft or Prozac for his panic attacks. We're still thinking about it. While we were in session Michael head the psych say suicidal thinking could be a side affect. He said, "what are you crazy? why would you want to give me something that would make me want to kill myself?" So of course we'd have that to contend with. I'm pretty sure I'm not sending him to school tomorrow. I'm still waiting to hear from Selpa and psych.

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Response (3.)... by atiredparent - 2008-03-20 22:14:52

He is only on an antispychotic? no mood stabilizer? has he ever been on a mood stabilizer with the Seroquel? Sometimes the meds can cause anxiety and sometimes an unstable bipolar can exhibit panic and anxiety as a sx of the bp.

Antidepressants are rarely advised in bp kids and are often activating and yes one of the side effects is suicidal thoughts. I would be leery of that. You might check out the treatment guidelines on this website. You can find them in the reference room (link on the left).

My son exhibited some anxiety from various meds but nevr to the degree that you are talking, so I am afraid I dont have much advice. I do hope that other parents post to this with more experience. I noticed the boards have been really busy the past couple of weeks. I think it is probably from the "March Maddness" that many bp kids experience. Anyhow, if you don't get a lot of response try posting another message and make the title or subject line anxiety and panic attacks or something like that.

Lynn

The Balanced Mind Foundation Volunteer

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Response (3.1.)... by rnmomo2@yahoo.com - 2008-03-28 19:46:11

That is quite a lot of Seroquel (my 9 yr old is on 100mg/day). Why is he not on mood stabilizers too? Sounds like he needs a med change.

I wouldn't send him to school until he is more stable as a repeat of that episode may be likely. It's a good thing that he knew he was starting to feel out of control and asked to go home - in the future that will be valuable to help prevent such instances. My son acts out as well right out of the blue and though I now see the subtle signs, it still baffles me. You can ask the pdoc for a script for homeschooling with a tutor from the school until his meds are straightened out and he is more stable.

I would not try an SSRI - they are very controversial in BP disorder. My son wound up in the phosp on them even after we stopped and started an atipsychotic. It may not hurt either to get a second psychiatric opinion.

Best wishes

Bonnie

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Response (4.)... by andyl - 2008-03-21 13:19:36

I would agree that it sounds like he needs some type of med adjustment. Can you arrange something with the school that if he is beginning to have those feelings, that he could have some quiet time, call to you, ect. Unfortunately, not enough accommodations are being made for our kiddos, especially when they are going through difficult times.

Andrea

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Response (5.)... by stephanini@comcast.net - 2008-03-21 17:36:02

Thanks guys for your advice and listening. He was on Depakote with the Seroquoel for awhile, it helped some and then the doctor suggested we take it away, I thought she was crazy. I asked her "What if it gets worse?" she said that then we would know it was working. Well, that weekend was 4th of July 2006. It was a completely different child. we have enjoyed mostly stability on just the Seroquol. He had an EKG today because he's had two episodes in the last two days of pounding heart, bitter taste in mouth, and then fatigue after. When just before it came on he was fine. His friend came over while he was lying on the couch asleep after this. Mike got up to play and said he couldn't move around because his heart would beat too fast. I think his class is fine but the "principals" are the disciplinarians and it seems their objective is to dish out consequences and show who's boss. I called the school to say he's not coming back because the school can't manage him and I can't risk them calling the sheriff on my 10 year old. He has a bruise from the restraint. He gets mad when he has these feelings at school and is unable most times to ask for space. He needs someone he trusts to be with him and talk him through it.

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Response (6.)... by atiredparent - 2008-03-21 18:52:28

Seems almost abusive and is definitely ignorant on the schools part. I would certainly report them, especially if they are a suppose to deal with special needs children. Please let us know what you find out about his latest sx. Very scarey when it involves the heart.

Lynn

The Balanced Mind Foundation Volunteer

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Response (7.)... by helpangel - 2008-03-21 19:33:53

where I live you need a doctor's note to keep a kid out of school for more then 3 consecutive days or it becomes a CPS issue (child neglect for depriving school). Document everything and make sure your ducks are all in a row.

Myself when the school calls I go get my kid. Doesn't matter to me if she is physically sick or not there are times when emotionally she has handled all she can for one day and needs to get out. I would rather get her then deal with police, ambulance, school suspension or other that could have been handled with a time out for her.

May peace be with you

Nancy

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Response (8.)... by salt64 - 2008-03-21 22:35:22

Hi Stephanie,

Your story sounds so familiar to me. Last year when my son was 10 he had a very similar situation at school with the major difference being how the school handled it.

He was "out of sync" and I asked him if he wanted to stay home from school that day because he had been having anxiety and sleep issues. He insisted on going and I hoped routine would help. School started at 9:30, by 10:15 I got a call that he had a "major meltdown" and that the police had been called. They restrained him (and it was explained to him that it was the rules they had to go by) and took him to the hospital. The main reason the police were called is because he had had several other meltdowns/anxiety attacks within two weeks and they felt he was a harm to himself. He ended up staying in the phosp. for two weeks.

My son has also had concerns about his heart beating too fast or his breathing being weird. I have learned that in his case it's usually anxiety and usually happens when he is overtired. I sit with him and talk quietly and assure him that if I feel he is in any danger I would get immediate medical help. It usually passes within 1/2 hour.

I would be very hesitant to try the SSRI's. My son did ok on Prozac for a little while then not so well. Paxil was a nightmare and the suicidal thoughts were there. My son also had very little results from Depakote. But Lithium, once at therapeutic levels, has been a wonder drug in combination with the seroquel. You might ask your pdoc if trialing Lithium might be an option.

Another thing that helped alot was a pass that he was given at school. He was able to present the pass to the teacher and have quiet time or go to the counselor office, no questions asked. He never abused the pass and I think just having it gave him comfort. This accommodation has been written into his 504 plan.

Our situation sounds so similar (we even share the same first name!), I've been where you are and I wish your son stability soon.

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Response (9.)... by stephanini@comcast.net - 2008-03-23 00:19:58

Typically I would get him right away. I literally just dropped him off 20 min. earlier and he was fine emotionally and physically and he knew I was going to be watching my mom's foster kids later as they had the day off so I thought maybe it was a ploy although not typical for him, my bad. I let the school know that I've requested an IEP and am seeking a change of placement. If I need one I am sure I can get a note. He went to the dr. for an ekg on Friday. He had a racing heart, bitter taste in his mouth and went to sleep when he was very energetic just before. He wasn't paniced or worried though, just reported it to me. I could feel his heart pounding hard. thanks for the heads up about CPS.

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Response (10.)... by stephanini@comcast.net - 2008-03-23 00:34:25

Stephanie,

Thanks so much, your message was so uplifting. I will mention the lithium on Friday and also my concerns about the SSRIs. He also had suggested a more temporary solution, a med. to give during an attack. I don't remember the name. I have it written somewhere and have to research it. Do you know anything about that?

If the school had said they needed to call 911 for a psychiatric emergency, I would get that, and even appreciate it. If that's what he needed. It was more like a tactic to scare than anything. I just think that they deal with mostly conduct disordered street-wise youth and don't have a good understanding of Michael's condition even though they have all his info and I've been in good contact with them. For now I'll just enjoy a quiet Easter.( We had to abruptly leave Easter at my Mom's today) I'll look forward to him getting back on track. I've enjoyed the year or so of stability. Thanks again so much.

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Response (11.)... by jistac - 2008-03-23 06:11:00

Stephanie,

I assume that your son has an IEP. Than if he does then you need to have a manifestation determination meeting to address the suspension. If the behavior ends up being a manifestation of the child's disability then the school can not suspend him or her or add in random disciplinary procedures such as searching. What needs to occur is that a functional behavioral assessment needs to be done and a behavior plan needs to be created so that if or when your son gets into a state like he did the other day everyone who works with him knows how to handle it so that it doesn't get worse, it is managed and you are contacted so that he can come home and be safe. If the school can not address his disability or his behavior then he needs to be placed in a therapeutic setting with trained staff who can. This might involve placement in a private therapeutic school. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing as some therapeutic schools are quite good.

You might want to visit Wrightslaw.com and read up on your rights as a parent who has a child with a disability and a behavioral problem. Schools are often poorly educated about disorders like BP and it is not uncommon for staff in these cases to do things that make the situation worse rather than better.

Good Luck

Your poor son I hope things improve for him soon.

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Response (12.)... by salt64 - 2008-03-23 09:34:24

Stephanie,

The prn med I use during an attack is an add'l 25mg of seroquel OR 1/2 tablet of clonodine. It usually works very well. The hardest part is getting him to take it once he is in an agitated state.

Have a quiet & happy Easter!

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Response (13.)... by stephanini@comcast.net - 2008-03-24 13:57:52

Jistac, thanks so much for that info. I've never heard of that "manifestation determination". He is at a "private therapeautic school" although it's more punitive than therapeautic. He's had an FBA and has a behavior plan. At this point a meeting needs to happen to address the school's total disregard for his IEP, disability, etc. Thanks again guys, for the great info and sharing. I really appreciate it.

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Response (14.)... by stephanini@comcast.net - 2008-03-28 15:31:44

Well, I was able to get Michael an appointment with psych on Monday. She agreed with the SSRI's being activitating which the other psych suggested we try. We are trying lithium and so far so good. Today he has another increase to 150 mg 3X's per day. Nothing changed on the Seroquol. He's still 600 mg/day. The only thing is he seems have some short term memory loss. Could just be sleepiness while he adjusts. No more panic attacks, he seems pretty stable. It's hard to tell if its the med or if its being out of school. As far as school goes, I just have to wait until Mon. everythings closed this week.

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Response (15.)... by elizabeth@lindellfamily.org - 2008-04-13 04:05:46

My newly dx nine-year-old daughter began taking Lamictal (25mg), which will be increased over the next few months, and Seroquel (12.5mg), tonight. She was dx bpnos. I, too, am bp and understand the importance of meds for this illness. I am just so worried about the Lamictal rash that can be fatal. I know it's rare and I keep telling myself not to let my fears get in the way of her treatment but I find myself checking her hands and feet constantly for rash and her mouth and eyes for signs of mucus. Also, I read that Lamictal is not recommended for children under age 16. Does anyone have any advice for me? She has disphoria and I believe Lamictal was chosen because it's helpful for depression. Her pdoc told me lithium is the "gold standard" but I know my child and there is no way she would be able to get through all of the blood monitoring. We had her blood drawn once before and she still recalls it as being traumatic.

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Response (15.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-13 10:31:59

My 14 yo started on Lamictal just last month and it has turned out to be her MIRACLE!!! I also was paranoid about the rash, but we titrated slowly and she was fine. I had also read as long as you go up SLOWLY it is fine. I would be VERY WEARY about checking her so often you may make her paranoid and scared and make her not want to take it!! I would just check her without making her aware that you are, for instance during a hug. JMO. Good Luck!!! I hope it works as well for her as it has for mine!!!

Cheri

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Response (16.)... by kalee - 2008-04-13 09:30:24

Most of the meds we give our kids are not approved for their young age. That is all we have just yet - maybe in the future?? Lamictal does have the rash worry but IMO, it is a SE one can see and immediately discontinue. I 'think' if the med is stopped soon, the rash will simply go away (it did for me).

BTW, the rash can be anywhere... mine was on my arms. The hidden SEs that a lot of meds cause are of more concern to me. IMO, Lamictal is as safe as they come and a good drug for depression and mood stabilizer. Oh, and after 6 mos after the rash, I titrated even slower and didn't get the rash.

Most kids are started at 12.5 mg and titrated by the same amount every week. If you are really worried, contact the pdoc and slow down the titration even more. With some people, raising the dose too fast will come closer to causing the rash (says my pdoc).

Good Luck - I hope it works :grin:

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DISCUSSION: Anxiety and Pyschosomatic symptoms? 2008-04-13 12:37:31 2008-03-20 18:48:18

Well, Brianna's 72 hr EEG came back and she IS NOT having seizures!!! So...we continue to try to figure this out. Could her "seizure-like episodes" be caused by anxiety? She gets REALLY hot, even to touch her she is HOT, she gets pale, hands and sometimes legs shake, can barely stand, gets dizzy and light headed. Sometimes preceeded with headache, sometimes headache comes after. TOTALLY EXHAUSTED afterwards and MUST take a nap. ALWAYS happens after physical activity- for example: she can take a half hour walk, but not an hour; she can go to the store with me, but not longer than 1 hour of shopping. She says it happens even when she is not feeling anxious, but I have discovered she is anxious sometimes even when she doesn't "feel" it. ANY thoughts, opinions, ideas, and suggestions DESPERATELY WANTED!!!!!

Thanks!

Cheri

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by nancyo - 2008-03-20 21:57:46

This is a wild guess. What about low blood sugar and/or some problem with her thyroid?

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Response (1.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-03-21 09:49:59

Blood sugar and thyroid already addressed.

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Response (2.)... by atiredparent - 2008-03-20 21:59:08

Anxiety can certainly surface like that and sometimes it isn't recognized. What does the pdoc or tdoc say?

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Response (2.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-03-21 09:50:52

Dropped old pdoc and tdoc. Meet new ones April 16th. PCP thinks it MAY be pychosomatic.

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Response (3.)... by - 2008-03-20 22:10:23

I am so sorry; how worrying for you all.

I really don't have an answer for you,and hope that there is another parent who has dealt with similar problems and has the answer for you.

My own daughter has had a long history of "odd" symptoms that no one could figure out, specialists, GP, pdoc etc. Temperature regulation is one of them. Now, at this late date, after consulting a DAN naturopath, we find that she had heavy metal burden, significant food sensitivities, adrenal imbalance and most likely significant metabolic abnormalities. All of these things seem to have added up to her private perfect storm.

As Dad Wi has mentioned in many of his posts regarding his own son, for our daughter I am begining to see that each of these problems need to be addressed separately. Her Dr's approach is to deal with them one at a time, tuning each system in turn.

It could be serendipity (always possible) it could be that finally she is receiving personalized and targeted treatments, it could be seasonal or placebo effects. But I am noticing significant improvments. Not perfect, but much better. Eliminating (or reducing a lot) problem foods from her diet, and substituting better choices for her particular situation (what works for her would not necessairly work for others as she is sensitive to wheat, cow dairy and egg whites) has made a very big difference.

There are other things she is taking and doing, but as they are more or less tailored, they might not apply to your child.

So, no answers per se, but lots of encouragement to keep looking and knocking on doors. There is a reason (or reasons) for her symptoms, and with perseverence I believe you will be able to track it/them down.

Best,

Rebecca

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Response (3.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-03-21 09:53:30

Temperature regulation problems since heat exhaustion at age 10. Doesn't seem to sweat as much as she should. What is a DAN naturopath and how do I find one?

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Response (4.)... by kotocat - 2008-03-21 00:52:01

The symptoms described remind me of similiar problems my daughter experiences. Any substained physical actitivy,(it doesn't take much), causes her face to appear "beet" red and she can become tremulous. She complains of symptoms simuliar to heat exhausion. Her DR has explained this has a probable adverse side affect to her medications. I try to remind her to stay hydrated and have provided the school with a list of the adverse side effects of her medications

Just my experiences- Hope all turns out well for

your little one

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Response (4.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-03-21 09:55:28

She drinks CONSTANTLY and sometimes these "episodes" happen for no apparent reason. IF they are caused by her meds how in the world do we stop it?!! These meds keep her SANE!!!!

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Response (4.1.1.)... by kotocat - 2008-03-21 12:46:27

Cheri:

Although your daughter's history seems more complex than mine I feel the same uneasiness you must feel. It makes you feel that you have to try harder to protect your child. Reflecting on the past, several years ago, surviving the "anti-depressant trail" (which twice required hospitalization) and seeing the symptoms you descibe is enough to unnerve anyone. Can you imagine how they percieve this? Your past messages sounds so much like my teenager - empathatic, creative, with low self esteem. Her social skills deficit make her so much more suceptable to being ostracized. All of this increases her anxiety level and seem to worsen the adverse effects of her medications. It breaks your heart!

What I have done with school since they haven't offered a modified PE class is have it substituted with a study/social skills class. This alone helps deal with some of the anxiety issues. I feel as a mother she is physically safer. We both live in warm climates and their medications and the greater inabilty to regulate heat is down right worrisome. Add the fine coordination deficits into the mix and the recipe increases for injury.

These are just my opinions. Just something you can perhaps reflect on.

I wish you the best. Hang in there

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Response (5.)... by - 2008-03-21 12:23:19

The dizziness etc. sounds like low blood pressure; periodic low blood pressure sometimes (always?) preceded by physical activity? If not thyroid, could be some adrenal problem (and adrenal problems are associated with anxiety). Quick google brings up heart problems as a possibility too....maybe electrolyte issues?

DAN stands for Defeat Autism Now. The idea is that there are biomedical causes of Autism, and if they are addressed, the symptoms are improved. Dad Wi, and others have found that these same principles can work for bp symptoms. What you are describing doesn't sound like bp, but because these Dr's (and if you can find a Medical Dr. that would be better than a Naturopathic Dr. because they have greater resources in the mainstream medicine world) tend to look at the whole person, not just the bits and pieces that are causing problems, they may be able to come up with solutions that others have overlooked.

http://www.generationrescue.org/angels.php You can google Defeat Autism Now to find more about the basic principles; this link will lead you to parents in your general location who can help you find one near you (if there is one).

Good luck sorting this out.

Rebecca

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Response (6.)... by jkela07@yahoo.com - 2008-03-21 16:11:39

Wow, her symptoms sound so much like it could be low blood sugar or thyroid problems. If I hadn't already your post that those had already been addressed, I would say that's what it is. My son was just diagnosed w/ Type 1 diabetes, and I would say that those are the exact same symptoms when his sugar is low. One thing I could suggest is that if you do not have a testing meter at home, maybe you should purchase one. You wouldn't believe how often I can feel the exact same way, check my blood and be able to attribute it to that and I'm not diabetic. At least that way, it's something that you can truely rule that out as a possible cause. Other than that I would write down everything. Right now, at least from what I have read in previous posts, you are w/ her a majority of the time. If she were in the hospital, the docs/nurses, would write down everything that she has, does, reactions, etc. Do the same. Right now, you can play doctor. Google the symptoms together, seperately. Try to rule out some things as possible causes; diet, environment, meds, etc. Go to the library and look things up to try to find out what this could be. The information is out there, we just have to find it. In the end see if you can compile a list of possible illnesses that could be causing this, take them to her doc and have them tell you why it either is or isnt this or that. I'm sure these are all things that you have thought of, but hopefully it will help. At best I hope that you guys get this figured out. I know that Brianna's had a rough go of it the past few months. Maybe soon she'll be able to enjoy just being a kid.

Kelly 28

Ethan 8 1/2, mood disorder nos, psychotic disorder nos, adhd, type 1 diabetes, hypothyroidism, lithium 300mg, seroquel 100mg, naltrexone 100mg, vyvanse 50mg, periactin 8mg, synthroid .025mg, insulin injections 2 times daily

Lilly 3 1/2

Abby 11mos

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Response (7.)... by smallmom - 2008-03-21 17:08:08

I assume because your DD had an EEG, she has a neurologist. Has the neurologist ruled out migraines?

I have two kids with migraines. My daughter's migraine sx sounds similar to your DD's sx, and they were related to anxiety. When her pdoc and neuro treated her mood instability (with Lamictal and Lexapro), her migraines and associated sx disappeared. My son, on the other hand, needed a preventive med (Propranolol) to control his migraines in addition to his BP meds.

Just wanted to share our experience.

Julia in MD, mom to:

Jacob 14.5, BP (Lamictal, Zonegran, Seroquel, Propranolol)

Annie 13, mood disorder-NOS (Lamictal, Lexapro)

Maya 9.5, anxiety/eating disorder (Zyprexa, Remeron)

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Response (8.)... by boomom - 2008-03-21 17:58:41

Has an MRI of her brain been done?

Peace,

Alyson

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Response (8.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-03-22 11:51:53

Yep. All fine. She was relieved- she thought for sure she had a tumor! :)

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Response (9.)... by naominjw - 2008-03-21 18:20:59

Doctors kept telling us similar symptoms my daughter had were "mental" - ie not real. For years. She also got too hot, too cold, acted like she had low blood sugar. Fell asleep, etc. What she had wqas so many different things. We finally found an endocrinologist who took his job seriously and found multiple problems including, by that time (after YEARS of suffering) osteoporosis in a 16 year-old! It is so easy for the doctors to just call anything they don't yet understand, "mental".

You might want to get her hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis checked and multiple thyroid tests. The Balanced Mind Foundation had an article about that, and adequate testing needed in one of the e-bulletins: Hypothyroidism - Is It Contributing to Your Child's Symptoms? by

Here is that link: http://www.thebalancedmind.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=8677

My daughter says that she felt traumatized by the medical profession's treatment of her up until that point, but at least we, her parents, didn't NOT believe her. I can't say we whole-heartedly DID believe her with everyone telling us it was all in her head... but we didn't disbelieve her either. Obviously, we never gave up.

(She's a young adult now and doing well).

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Response (9.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-03-22 12:01:41

Yeah, she's pretty upset with neurologist #2- he kept saying it was behaviorial!! :angry: Then she got scared that WE would start thinking she is making it up and acting like this on purpose!! But other people, including the school have seen this happen to her. In fact the school will call me SO VERY SCARED for her and what can they do?!! It IS hard at times to NOT think she is being over-dramatic, and honestly SOMETIMES I am sure she is, but MOST of the time it is just SO RANDOM and anyone can OBVIOUSLY see she isn't doing this on purpose!!

THANK YOU SO VERY VERY MUCH EVERYONE!! For all the suggestions and I will be checking into EVERY one of them!! :smile: If anyone thinks of anything else- please continue!!

Brianna also says THANKS!!! We read this together and she's like- "Wow Mom!! Look at all this help!!" :sillygrin: We BOTH SO MUCH APPRECIATE it!!! THANKS!!!!

Love & Peace,(and HUGS!:) )

Cheri

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Response (9.2.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-03-30 00:10:31

She was found last fall to have hypothyroid and has been on synthroid since then. Do you think it could still be causing problems even though she is on this thyroid med?

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Response (10.)... by rnmomo2@yahoo.com - 2008-03-27 13:16:39

I have seen this in my practice as a nurse. It can happen and look like a seizure and is psychologicaqlly based. It is called pseudoseizures and can result from overwhelming anxiety. The body will react physiologically hence the flushing ect... It is best diagnosed with direct observation by a trained clinician (neurologist). Antidepressants, and anxiloytic drugs are commonly used with therapy - however caution is needed if the child has a bp disorder

Bonnie

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Response (10.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-03-28 21:09:34

Hey Bonnie, what about the Lamictal- it is an antieplileptic and an ms, right? So shouldn't it "technically" work to treat both?

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Response (10.1.1.)... by rnmomo2@yahoo.com - 2008-03-29 20:26:42

A mood stabilizer does not necessarily treat anxiety if the anxiety is not related to bipolar disorder. An anxiety disorder (whether it be comorbid or singular) that may be related to pseudoseizures does not always indicate a bipolar disorder. It would stand to reason though that if one was on a therapeutic dose of an anti-epileptic drug (a dose for epiletic seizures), they shouldn't have a phsyiological seizure. All the more reason to suspect a psychogenic cause for the seizure that might not be related to the BP disorder, but may be a comorbid condition.

Bonnie

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Response (11.)... by - 2008-03-29 21:31:22

http://www.isps-us.org/koehler/bipolar_stress.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16019585?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSys...

Naomi led me to start looking into the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis as it applies to bipolar disorder. From what I can gather prolonged stress/anxiety (which according to some recent publications are identifying markers of bipolar disorder) raises cortisol levels which impacts on cognitive function and general health. There have been some trials of meds that block cortisol receptors, thus reducing anxiety, depression and increasing some types of cognitive functioning.

This seems to have been a pet research avenue of Allan Young's http://www.leefbc.ca/email/0703l/Allan_Young.html; now he is into the Electron Chain Transport/mitochondria end of things. As he is in our neighbourhood I will ask daughter's pdoc if she can look into these treatments, and if she does, and if she lets me know, I will report back here.

Rebecca

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Response (11.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-03-29 23:41:10

That would be simply AWESOME!! Thanks so much!! We meet with her neurologist #2 on Monday to go over the 72 hour EEG in detail. Her episodes seem to have decreased some since upping the Lamictal to 150 mgs and I have told her it sounds to many of us she is just having anxiety/panic attacks. She did make it thru school all week w/o calling me to pick her up and w/o an episode. But she did say she wanted to call several times but figured I would get mad. She also spent most of the time in the resource room too.

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Response (12.)... by dsg862 - 2008-03-30 08:42:34

I concur with everything that has been written, there are so many variables but have not yet seen a post about P450.

Pharmacokinetics

Pharmacokinetics is characterized by four phases:

Absorption

Distribution

Metabolism

Elimination

Metabolism

Metabolism is characterized two types (phases) of enzymatic reactions which make the substrate (drug) more water soluble to allow clearance (elimination) from the body:

Phase I (Biotransformation):

Oxidation

Hydroxylation

Reduction

Hydrolysis

Phase II (Conjugation):

Addition of a new functional group

Cytochrome P450 (CYP) Isoenzymes

The name Cytochrome P450 comes from the wavelength of light (450n.m.) that is absorbed by these isoenzymes.

CYP isoenzymes are responsible for oxidative metabolism (Phase I) of many drugs, steroids and carcinogens. CYP isoenzymes are a group of heme-containing enzymes embedded primarily in the lipid bi-layer of the endoplastic reticulum of hepatocytes (liver cells). CYP metabolism also occurs - to a lesser extent -in the small intestine, kidney, lung and brain. More than thirty (30) CYP human isoenzymes have been identified.

Nomenclature

Root: CYP

Family: CYP2

Subfamily: CYP2D

Gene: CYP2D6

All CYP isoenzymes in the same family have at least 40% structural similarity, and those in the same subfamily have at least 60% structural similarity.

First Pass Metabolism

Oral medications are absorbed through the small intestine into the portal circulation. Initial metabolism by cytochrome P450 isoenzymes occurs in bowel wall and in the liver before entering the systemic circulation. This is known as the "first pass" effect.

Substrate

A substrate is a compound that is metabolized by a given enzyme.

For example, fluoxetine (substrate) is metabolized by CYP2D6 and CYP3A4. In this case, more than one isoenzyme (redundancy) is metabolizing a single agent. This means that if one enzyme system is shut down, the other can still metabolize fluoxetine.

Inhibitor

An inhibitor is a compound that "slows down" the metabolism of a substrate by a given enzyme.

For example, fluoxetine slows down the metabolism of desipramine (substrate) by CYP2D6. In this case, fluoxetine now acts as an inhibitor. As a result, desipramine levels will rise. This can be very dangerous clinically resulting in tricyclic (desipramine) toxicity, prolonged QRS intervals (> 0.1), arrhythmia and even death.

Inducer

An inducer is a compound that "speeds up" the metabolism of a substrate by a given enzyme.

For example, carbamazepine speeds up the metabolism of clozapine (substrate) by both CYP1A2 and CYP3A4. In this case carbamazepine acts as an inducer. As a result, clozapine plasma levels will fall. Conversely, if carbamazepine is discontinued, clozapine levels will rise. This can result in adverse effects such as an unanticipated seizure.

Human Drug Oxidation

More than 90% of human drug oxidation is due to six CYP isoenzymes:

1A2

2C9

2C19 *

2D6 *

2E1

3A4 **

* Many antidepressants and antipsychotic medications are metabolized by either CYP2C19 or CYP2D6. This often results in clinically significant drug-drug interactions when treating an individual (e.g. psychotic depression) with both an antidepressant and an antipsychotic. Likewise, concerns about toxicity arise when co-prescribing both a TCA and an SSRI (an accepted practice for treatment resistant depression).

** CYP3A4 is involved in the metabolism of more than fifty (50) percent of ALL drugs. Furthermore, it often serves as the second isoenzyme system or "safety net" involved in drug metabolism. Except for trazodone, the following psychotropics are metabolized by another isoenzyme in addition to CYP3A4 :

Antidepressants - imipramine, paroxetine, sertraline & trazodone

Antipsychotics - clozapine, haloperidol pimozide

Benzodiazepines (most) except for lorazepam and oxazep

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Response (13.)... by elizabeth@lindellfamily.org - 2008-04-12 04:55:16

Hi...

My newly diagnosed daughter has been having low-grade fevers for about six-months, when bipolar symptoms began to present. Her pdoc feels the fevers are psychosomatic and her body's way of reacting to the intense emotions that she feels.

Elizabeth

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Response (14.)... by kalee - 2008-04-12 14:12:20

Hi Elizabeth,

I personally have never heard of a psychosomatic fever with bp but that does not mean it can't happen I suppose.

What meds is she on and was she on meds when the fever started? I hope you find the answers you are looking for! Sorry I was not of any help...

Kathy

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Response (15.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-13 12:37:31

Since being told she was NOT having seizures after the 72 hr EEG, (and she DEFINATELY had "episodes" during it), and it was being caused by anxiety, she has NOT had anymore full-blown "episodes" since!! She HAS felt "it" starting, but has taken the necessary steps to keep it from totally disabling her and getting it back under control. We saw the PCP on Friday for acne and lithium level and discussed this with him. He said actually that reaction is pretty typical. Once the patient finds out FOR SURE they are NOT dying or whatever, their brains tell them "okay, this is dumb and unnecessary- let's not do this anymore" and it starts to resolve itself. Pretty far out, huh? Strange what our brains can do to our body and how it can correct itself too.

Thank goodness it is over!! Thanks A MILLION to everyone and ALL the advice, knowledge, and support!!! It was a HUMONGOUS help to BOTH of us!!!!

Love & Peace,

Cheri & Brianna

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DISCUSSION: Off to College 2008-04-02 11:01:14 2008-03-23 08:31:33

How do you prepare your teen when they are going off to college in the fall? My dd is medicine compliant, and doesn't drink or take any other substances other than her medication. Hopefully she will continue this way. She is, however, forgetful and I have been giving her the medications basically for the last two years. When I let her take them on her own, she occasionally falls asleep or forgets. Also, if she does cycle when at college, it is usually hard to detect when she is heading that way because it is very subtle with her. Once she is manic, which is not obvious to the outside world at the begining, she can't self report. Is there someone that you can tell what to look for without violating her privacy and trust? For example, can you trust TA's on the floor with the information since they are only college students? Or do you write a letter to the Dean of Freshman like they suggest in the Bipolar Child?

How should she approach the medication/illness with her roommate? It would be great if she could room with another girl that has a similiar problem, but I don't think that is a question they ask on the housing form. I told her not to disclose until people see what a great person she is and only disclose to people she can trust. This leaves the question about medications. How can you hide them in a small dorm room?

How do I present her disability to the disability office? She doesn't have a diagnosed learning disability. She has needed accomodations in school because of a medical leave. Extended time on tests and permission to take them in a separate room has been an enormous help at reducing stress levels for her. When choosing courses how can she get an idea about the course load/demands so that she can have a schedule that is balanced and not too overwhelming? I have told her to pick classes later in the morning so she can sleep in. Sleep is absolutely imperative for her stability so late nights cramming is out of the question.

She said she doesn't want a single and she thought about a quiet dorm, but on the other hand she is very worried about fitting in and making friends, so I think a double would be better than a single and a triple seems out of the question because her need for reduced stress and a regular sleep schedule. I've heard that the quiet dorms can be socially isolating because it can also be hard to make friends.

So far she has some great college choices and financial aid is a big factor for us. Should she choose the college 30 minutes from home that offers a decent package and is a great school, or the one that offers a better package but is 1 1/2 hours from school and seems like a better fit and would create much less debt. The one further away would mean that I couldn't check up on her as much to see if things are ok.

If she gets in to a school even a bit further from home we thought a gap year might be an option. She was diagnosed two years ago and I feel that we still don't know this illness really well although this last cycle she has managed to function and stay out of the hospital. There is still a degree of uncertainty about her cycles and also medication and I can't help thinking one more year at home working might be a good idea. She is not sure about this and I think there are both positive and negative things about this choice. When she has cycled she always needs my support and doesn't like to be alone, so I don't know how she would feel if this happens at college.

How do we evaluate the schools services for someone with a psychiatric disability? What happens if a student does miss school?

Thanks for any suggestions.

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by atiredparent - 2008-03-23 12:11:04

You know alot of your concerns are concerns that many parents have. In your case you add in a disability.

I wonder if a simple explanation to a roommate that she takes meds for a physical condition that causes a chemical imbalance in her would suffice for explanation for meds.

As far as remembering to take meds. Perhaps the meds can be adjusted now to fit the lifestyle of a college kid? you know the timing, minimize the number of doses per day by combining if possible? I would talk to tdoc and pdoc about any way to simplify med taking.

Remembering meds? well we all forget. I am not bp but I do have a ulcerative colitis and I am to take meds 3 times a day. Well I could remember to give my sons meds to him without fail but remember mine aobut once a day at most!

Maybe you could purchase a med dispenser that has a clock with an alarm on it? They have some really nice ones now that doesn't just alarm once but will keep going off every so often until the meds are remembered or the switch tripped. They use them alot for seniors.

Distance from school. Well one thing to consider is if she is 1 1/2 hr away or 1/2 hour away is how often will you be compelled to visit to check up on her that first year? I am not so sure that is a great idea no matter how worried you are because it will make her stand out for sure, however, will there really be a savings if you do intend to visit often or call all the time? And is an hour more really that much more of a drive? I drive 45 to an hour to work every day and you get used to it.

As far as monitoring. If you visited once a month and called every few days would you be able to pick up the signs of mania? lol, my 20 yo nonbp daughter calls me atleast once a day. Yours might surprise you. Maybe questions such as how are you sleeping? eating? or whatever it is that indicates the start of mania.

I know we have to protect these kids more than a nonbp kid but we also have to let them go and have some freedom. At some point if you hold on too tight or too long she will rebel and that could mean she stops treatment, etc.... It is a fine line I know. Believe me I know. My son is going through hell right now becaus I didnt' protect him and tried the tough love and it failed. The results of my mistakes with him will most likely be death or prison. So I know what it is to go the other way and let them go too much, but I also know that I had to let him go because I held on too tight and he rebelled.

Are you part of a support group on this website? If not you may want to join. There are support groups for transition age kids and you may be able to get a lot more advice from those parents in that group. The link is on the left side of the page.

Lynn

The Balanced Mind Foundation Volunteer

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Response (2.)... by atiredparent - 2008-03-23 12:23:03

http://www.epill.com/dispenser.html?source=yahoo&OVRAW=medication%20disp...

http://www.epill.com/

Follow the first link to some really good med dispensers. the second link is the same website with more options. Some are quite expensive however considering she has a lifelong disorder it may be worth the investment. There are also some reasonably priced ones as well.

The vibrating pager is kind of cool! If you do go with an assistive device it is probably better to start with it now so that the habit of using it is there.

You may be able to get insurance to help with the cost. I am not sure. FYI anything recommended by AARP is usually good. It is kind of like the better housekeeping seal of approval.

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Response (2.1.)... by pumpkin - 2008-03-23 14:48:58

but I think the closer she is to you, the better you could help her in a pinch. This illness is very, very unpredictable. Not to mention all the stressors at college. There are so many things that could trigger a spiral. Given the fact that she does not remember to take her meds would be enough for me to consider keeping her at home another year and have her go to community college to start with. I would be working on giving over the responsibility of managing her illness to her. I am doing this with my 12 year old son and hope he'll get it by the time he is 18. Even if he does, though, I will want him to be close because this disease is very dangerous. Remember that often they go off of their meds and then they spiral out of control. Often, it is too late to help at that point. Poor Lynn is now dealing with this with her son. I am sure you'll come up with a way to keep her safe and also go to college. It is a tough call, I am giving you only my 2 cents for what they are worth.

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Response (2.1.1.)... by jamison - 2008-03-23 15:56:06

My son is only 7 but this sure has me thinking . . .

I agree with pumpkin's ideas. The first year of college is a huge transition for many kids who don't have bipolar or other mental illnesses. Could your daughter go to a school closer to home? live at home for the first year? and start out with a light course-load to make the adjustment easier? I'd see how it goes and then take if from there.

She would still be meeting other students on campus when she goes to classes. Dorm life as I remember it wasn't all that and I lived in an off campus apartment after my first year in the dorm. I remember the dorm being very noisy (elevators, doors opening/closing all hours, etc). My husband and his sisters all lived at home (to save money) while going to college. Looking back I believe this added stability (even though they didnt have bipolar) and was beneficial to them.

I think living at home would lend itself to her not having to deal with the privacy issues surrounding her illness/medications, so she could concentrate on getting good grades. She also could continue seeing her current p-doc and therapist on a regular basis.

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Response (2.2.)... by canne - 2008-03-24 08:15:57

Thanks Lynn. This is a great idea.

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Response (3.)... by kotocat - 2008-03-24 11:07:41

I understand how diffucult it is trying to address these transitional issues. Our children face many when leaving home to attend college. I'm starting early because of many of the concerns you have wondered about. The DR just made us aware of the distance issue. Can you imagine we did not consider the need for her to be placed close to home so we can check up on her or she can drive home on weekends if needed? It makes me wonder want else we haven't considered. We were told the counseling/medical centers vary greatly among the colleges. This is where I plan to center our focus on.

When she enters college she will legally be a adult. Since the college is legally binded to respect her confidentiality, she will be solely responsible for advocating for herself (scarey huh?). She will have to have all her paperwork current ie. educational assessments etc.. This way she can claim her disablity after admissions.

So much to consider! Maybe you and your daughter should visit the school's counseling centers to ask questions and "feel them out". As far as disclosing her medical history to the new and potential dorm mate, I personally would wait. Whos to know her maturity level and character.

Please keep up informed on want you decide.

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Response (4.)... by bmrattray@carevariance.com - 2008-03-25 14:03:15

I am a BP 24 yr old female, who had to deal with this very situation. I cannot answer all of your questions, but I do know that it is very hard to fit in and feel normal when you are bp, so isolating our daughter can make her feel more abnormal. I am not sure how severe your daughter is, but I am proof that you can lead a typical college life and be bp.

I went to school in Denver and my family lived in Seattle. I definately had my ups and downs; however, I always knew that my parents were there for me anytime over the phone and if necessary, they would fly me home or fly out to visit. An hour and a half drive really isn't that far, so just make sure your daughter knows that you are there for her anytime.

I am happy that I got to have the "college experience"; however, I will say that it is very hard to explain to professors/the school about bp. I actually participated in a book about students with bp and the conclusion was that many schools do not consider it a disability or illness, even though it is. THere were many days that I had trouble getting out of bed and I missed class, but my professors were not understanding or I did not want to tell them my reasoning, because of the stigma associated with bp. My grades were my motivation for taking my meds everyday. Without my meds, I would not have survived college.

I was very lucky to have a roommate who was very understanding of my bp. Plus, you have to keep in mind that everyone has problems and issues, especially in college, and I think that you would be surprised how many people have gone through bouts of depression and can somewhat sympathize.

I think that your advice about letting people get to know your daughter first before she reveals that she is bp is great advice.I have always been fairly open about my bp, but not until people got to know the real me. Once people see that I am a fairly "normal" person, they don't think much about my bp.

I hope this helps you in someway.

Bethany

The Balanced Mind Foundation Volunteer

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Response (4.1.)... by kotocat - 2008-03-25 14:48:19

Thanks for sharing your experiences. It was a encouraging message. I would love to hear about your college experiences anytime. It can only help my daughter prepare for " college life ".

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Response (4.2.)... by canne - 2008-03-26 21:06:39

Thanks Bethany. It is really helpful to hear from someone that has been through the experience. My daughter is the type that is embarrassed about her illness and wouldn't want anyone to know.

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Response (5.)... by jistac - 2008-03-26 07:10:40

Our daughter went off to college last year in a big city. She was not diagnosed yet and was not completely med compliant with the treatment she was on at the time and she likes the occasional drink. One thing that we did do was arrange for her to see a private psychiatrist in the city where she was in school. Our pdoc found the names of 4 psychiatrists who came highly recommended to him and my daughter went and interviewed them and chose one. I think I felt better about her situation knowing that she was seeing somebody regularly. And when she did have a complete manic-depression cycle that person was critical in catching her and making sure it didn't go completely out of control.

One problem with college is that the kids are 18 and unless they sign a document giving you access to all their information the professionals are limited as to what they can tell you. You might want to talk with your daughter about extending parental rights.

Our daughter had to eventually leave school spring semester and come home and go into a hospital program (remember she was not officially dx yet as BP). Mostly she had to do this because the psychiatrist she was working with messed up. Which only goes to show that even a really good well regarded psychiatrist is not perfect. This young psychiatrist fell into the trap of being enthralled by our daughter who can be charming and poised and eloquent and didn't see what was in front of her. My daughter made the mistake of worshipping her pdoc which didn't help the treatment at all.

But fortunately given the expense of tuition we had purchased tuition insurance offered by our daughter's school. The insurance was not that expensive but it was worth it. Read the fine print though. Our insurance said it would not reimburse for any disability contained in the DSM. We almost found ourselves taking them to court for mental health parity violations, but nobody could tell me for sure if parity laws would apply to this situation. Fortunately one of the mistakes the young psychiatrist made was in managing my daughter's thyroid after putting her on lithium after her episode of mania. And so our pdoc back at home wrote a letter spelling out that problem which is in the regular medical diagnostic book and they accepted that.

Jistac

CAM Board Moderator

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Response (5.1.)... by canne - 2008-03-29 07:52:45

Hello Jistac. How do you extend parental rights? Sorry to hear about your daughter, but it sounds like she is back on the path again and more wise because of it.

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Response (6.)... by kotocat - 2008-03-27 16:56:56

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Response (7.)... by macandcheese - 2008-03-28 10:11:30

All of those questions that you've posed sound so familiar...However, I am not sure where your daughter is as far as managing her illness/meds.

With that being stated, our dd, 18 with bp is a senior. She too was diagnosed just under two years ago. Long story short, we/she have decided that she should stay close to home for two years at a community college. Until such time that she is managing her illness/meds she needs to be closer to us, and on a smaller/less demanding campus.

She is sad and disappointed with this change of events/plans as a result of her illness, but the more rational side of her agrees. Part of her illness has led her to some pretty grandious and irrational planning and so her coming to terms with this plan has been difficult for her to come to terms with.

Best of luck to you, your family, and especially your daughter. If/when you have a chance I'd love to hear about her progress/plans. As I stated, this sounds much like my dd and I think that my dd would love to know how someone her age is doing/handling her illness...

~ Penny

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Response (7.1.)... by pumpkin - 2008-03-28 16:11:42

Penny,

I think you are very wise to keep your dd close for now. My son is only 12, but because of the severity of this illness, I doubt he'll be going far from us. Once you give it some more time, maybe she can go away later. The great thing about this website is we get to see how everyone handles their situations. And, thus we learn from one another! Of course, each kid is different, but we still can learn from each other.

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Response (7.2.)... by canne - 2008-03-29 08:02:48

Hi Penny,

She has some choices in the vicinity of our place that are really a hop, skip and a jump away. So it would be almost like a community college. She is also sick of our apartment. I would probably bring her down by being too overprotective, nagging her and not giving her the space she needs to become independent. We both have very different personalities and temperments. I can't be around my mother for more than a few hours because she drives me crazy. On the other hand, my dd does need me occassionally and so being close to home she could call me anytime. I am also looking forward to her growing up and becoming more independent.

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Response (7.2.1.)... by macandcheese - 2008-03-31 10:15:11

I think that's great that she will be able to move away and do what both of you want for her...Wish we could send off our daughter the very same way. However, it doesn't sound as if she's as far along as your daughter. Our dd hates where we live and gets very down about staying here a moment longer, let along two more years!!! We live in the mountains, she prefers the beach.

I wish you/your daughter the best!

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Response (7.2.1.1.)... by jistac - 2008-04-01 07:12:59

macandcheese,

Hey tell your daughter I will take the mountains OR the beach. Either one sounds luxurious to me. It would be great to get away from the cars and the frantic pace. It would be great to see stars at night and to not wake up to construction noises.

I live in a suburb of a large city. We have woods and conservation land but that isn't quite the same as being near the ocean or in the mountains.

The grass is always greener some place else.

Jistac

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Response (7.2.1.1.1.)... by macandcheese - 2008-04-02 11:01:14

You are so right Jistac! Moving from herself is what she wants, and that's what we recognize. She has that "sick dog" syndrome...I can't wait, and am holding out hope, that she will learn to live in the now as she gets better, and better, and better ; )

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DISCUSSION: Skin picking 2008-03-29 20:32:06 2008-03-25 16:04:28

Does anyone have a child who picks at his/her own skin until bleeding and what have you been able to do about it? My 9 y/o dd has OCD as well as BP, plus more. She picks at spots on her body, mostly her face but sometimes arms and legs, until bleeding. These spots will start to heal and then she will break them open again. She currently has some spots on her face that have been open for 7 months now, and I fear they will permanently scar. There doesn't seem to be a med that can address this problem. We have tried cognitive therapy, teaching deep breathing/relaxation, and _constant_ supervision (but 24/7 is impossible!), all of which seem to work only until the anxiety spikes too high.

For what it's worth, dd tells us that yes, the picking does hurt, no, she doesn't like to do it and wants to stop, but when she's feeling anxious the picking gets rid of the anxiety. The relief she feels is worth the pain and skin damage to her, at least in the moment.

Does anyone have any suggestions? Thank you so much!

Janet

DD, 9, BP, OCD, anxiety, ADHD, RAD, risperdal, anafranil

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by atiredparent - 2008-03-25 16:43:06

Has she ever been on a mood stabilizer? Risperdal did this to my son as a side effect, but sounds like it is more anxiety or ocd for your child.

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Response (2.)... by smallmom - 2008-03-25 18:49:13

Has she been better or worse since she started Anafranil? As you know, Anafranil is an antidepressant that can destabilize kids with BP (although I know it treats OCD -- but it doesn't seem to be helping that). I agree with Lynn that she might need a mood stabilizer before an antidepressant is considered. You might also want to look into Seroquel, which has been used off-label in low doses for OCD.

Julia in MD, mom to:

Jacob 14.5, BP, migraines (Lamictal, Zonegran, Seroquel, Proranolol)

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Response (3.)... by jistac - 2008-03-26 06:54:49

I unfortunately understand this all too well. I don't have BP but I suppose one could say I am an anxious person. I have picked at mosquito bites and wounds since I was a young child and I used to do it enough that I gave myself scars. I don't know why I do it sometimes and other times I don't. I know that I have inattentive ADD and dyslexia and when I am taking a stimulant and focused on my work and busy I don't pick. I sometimes think I pick to keep me focused and to wake me up. I also pick when I am nervous.

It took a lot to confess that I do this to my son's pdoc or tdoc. I have been addressing my anxiety and that seems to help a little. I also think addressing my inattention helps as well.

My two bp kids both bite their nails and chew their cuticles, especially when their anxiety is high. So I guess my recommendation is that you need to address your daughter's anxiety. Looking at her meds you really don't have a combination that would deal with depression and anxiety and that might be what his needed.

Good Luck

Jistac

CAM Board Moderator

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Response (4.)... by atiredparent - 2008-03-26 08:31:47

Jistac is suggesting that you look at meds to address the anxiety and inattention which is an excellent idea. I want to caution you that ADHD meds and antidepressants are contraindicated in bipolar children most of the time and defintely until a childs bp is stable. Stimulants and Antidepressants are often destabilizing.

The picking could be anxiety, impulsivity, ocd. All three can require very different treatments. If it were me having to decide on a med, I would start with the mood stabilizer like lithium, lamictal, triliptal, or tegretol before looking at stimulants or antidepressants. Sometimes a mood stabilizer will help with the impulsivity or anxiety. My own son has OCD tendencies when he is unstable. It is one of the first signs of instability in him. Suddenly he was obssessed with his hair, with items in the kitchen cupboard being straight, his clothes. He would comb his hair until he had bald patches. He said he knew in his head that it was ok but he just couldn't help it. You may also want to revisit the risperdal to see if there is room to increase the dose.

I would recommend that you look at the treatment guidelines that you can find in the reference room (link on the left side of screen).

Lynn

The Balanced Mind Foundation Volunteer

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Response (5.)... by janetward7@gmail.com - 2008-03-26 14:57:54

Thanks for all your feedback and suggestions. A little history here -- the dx's we have are relatively new, only about 8 months old, with the exception of ADHD. Prior to that, for the past 4 years, we thought DD was on the autistic spectrum. Meds were being handled by a neurologist instead of a psychiatrist. My understanding is that those 2 disciplines have a different view of the world, so the medicine choices that were made were not the same as if we had started with a pdoc to begin with.

Anyway, yes, DD was on lamictal for about 6 months last year but it didn't seem to be doing anything so was discontinued. The anafranil, surprisingly, has been _very_ effective for some of DD's other OCD symptoms, such as feeling the need to "get things" (toys, food) right NOW. It's an OCD thing with a very decidedly RAD twist to it, and the anafranil has helped greatly with that. Perhaps that's why until I read some of your comments I didn't consider that perhaps the anafranil could be a culprit with the picking.

ADHD, inattention, impulsivity... your comments have me thinking Jistac.... I tend to overlook the ADHD components in DD because while her ADHD is severe, it is seemingly the least of our problems. We have tried no less than 7 ADHD meds over the past 4 years, all of which had to be discontinued due to irritability or anxiety side effects. We have gotten to the point where we have pretty much given up on any ADHD meds, at least for the time being.

I had thought we were pretty stable, minus the picking of course. But your comments regarding the meds and lack of ms are good ones. Sometimes it's hard to see the forest for the trees, which is why boards like this can be so valuable. I have made an appt with the pdoc to discuss a mood stabilizer and the picking. Thanks everybody.

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Response (6.)... by jistac - 2008-03-26 15:53:30

I should add one other thing,

I have very dry skin and I also have eczema and am prone to seasonal and environmental allergies. So another factor with my picking is that to be honest I just ITCH. Taking Clariten or Zyrtec helps a lot. Putting a little natural oil in my bath also helps. Taking care of my skin minimizes the amount that I pick.

I also think that having something positive to do with your hands such as knitting, crocheting, drawing helps me as well. Your daughter is at the perfect age to learn to knit or crochet. If you yourself don't know how then I recommend the KLUTZ books for instruction. They not only come with starting materials but their instructions are SUPER DUPER clear.

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Response (6.1.)... by janetward7@gmail.com - 2008-03-28 07:17:29

Jistac, it's funny that you mention dry skin. DD has very dry skin that is prone to eczema outbreaks if we don't take care of it. And she does have allergies that I give her zyrtec or claritin for on a regular basis. (Guess I'll have to double-check with the pdoc on that.) I like your idea of learning to knit or crochet, as DD is very creative and I know would like to do something like that. I was thinking of her as too young still, but perhaps not. I don't know the first thing about it so I will have to rely on the Klutz books.

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Response (6.1.1.)... by jistac - 2008-03-28 08:17:30

One reason I am convinced that allergies play a HUGE role in my own skin picking is because I have lived in a variety of settings and the picking is definitely worse in some than others. In the NW my allergies were terrible. I also tend to stop picking when I am on Islands or on Mountains (places where my allergies are much better). I hate feeling itchy and it drives me crazy. I have a high pain tolerance and a low itch tolerance. Then again I am also way more relaxed when I am in those settings because I am either on vacation or doing something I really enjoy.

And Anxiety is another real contributer. I do origami and if I am nervous then napkins, papers, post-its, chopstick holders etc....all get turned into little folded things.

BTW, I hate to promote products but one thing that I have loved for my dry skin is these bath scrubbies. I know that $12.00 might seem like a lot for a bath thing but they actually do last quite a long time.

http://lingskincare.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=50

I discovered them in NYC one time and have been addicted every since.

Jistac

CAM Board Moderator

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Response (6.1.1.1.)... by rnmomo2@yahoo.com - 2008-03-29 20:32:06

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Response (7.)... by atiredparent - 2008-03-26 17:15:12

I would be leery with meds like zyrtec or clariten for a bp child unless you discuss with the pdoc as they can be activating and also may be contraindicated with the other meds she is on. However, some parents do give Benadryl to their kids for sleep and anxiety control and it is safe to give with Risperdal. Maybe you want to try that in addition to a really good bath oil and skin cream. Perhaps one of those squishly balls that people use to exercise their hands or a hand excercise grip thing that she could squeeze instead of picking? Some people put a rubber band on their wrist when they are trying to quit smoking and when they are craving a cigarette they snap the rubber band maybe that would refocus her for this?

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Response (7.1.)... by mom2nicolas - 2008-03-27 09:22:50

I'm embarrassed to say that I am guilty of this myself and have had this horrible habit since childhood. I suffered from severe acne as a teen/early adult and it was some sense of relief to have the scab removed. I really don't know why that makes me feel relieved, but it truly does. The only time I don't do this is when I have acrylic nails on (not feasible for a 9 y/o). I really think it's a nervous habit, so I have tried to have something in my hands that I can "do." For example, while driving the other day I had a ziploc baggie from some snacks that I continually opened and closed. This kept me from picking at my nails/cuticles.

Sorry it's not much help, but I am curious to know what you find that helps.

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Response (7.1.1.)... by janetward7@gmail.com - 2008-03-28 07:27:15

Ha! Acrylic nails! She would _love_ them but the school would think I'm nuts. Well, they do already so what's the difference? I like the ziploc baggie idea. We have lots of fidget toys but I'm always looking for new ideas. Opening and closing the zipper on a baggie might be good for a while. Plus I read somewhere it helps to strengthen finger muscles and helps with fine motor coordination. A double whammy!

Thanks and I'll let you know if I find anything that really, really works.

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Response (7.2.)... by janetward7@gmail.com - 2008-03-28 07:21:46

I do give DD zyrtec or claritin on a pretty regular basis and have never checked with the pdoc about this as they are OTC. My bad. I will check with him... I like your idea about the rubber band snapping on the wrist. Don't know how DD would react to it but it's worth a try. We already have "fidget toys" as we call them, of all types and textures, that sometimes seem to work when the urge to pick is not as bad but don't when the urge gets overwhelming. It's a personal thing, but so far silly putty is DD's favorite.

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Response (8.)... by andyl - 2008-03-27 11:44:44

My ds also picked at scabs, ect. for quite awhile. I believe it is anxiety driven behavior. We are finally trying buspar for his anxiety. So far it seems to be helping. I myself don't pick at my skin, but I smoke. I smoke, because I'm anxious! I think that the anxiety is just as crippling for the kids, but it has been the hardest for my ds to get a med. for. Lamictal worked great until he developed a rash. It took awhile for his pdoc to address the anxiety.

Andrea

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Response (9.)... by ksmith2793@sbcglobal.net - 2008-03-27 12:21:22

HELLO --------

Had to paste this website link, as I think it is really informative.

http://www.trich.org/index.asp

I live in this town, and have a friends daughter with trichotillomania. If you look on the page under announcements, it speaks about skin picking.

Hope this helps!

-Kathleen from Santa Cruz

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Response (9.1.)... by janetward7@gmail.com - 2008-03-28 07:31:40

Thanks for the web site info. I had not seen this before, although I was aware skin picking and trich are considered to be different symptoms of the same thing. Overall it looks like this is a pretty tough problem to get a handle on (sigh). We will keep trying...

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Response (10.)... by rnmomo2@yahoo.com - 2008-03-27 13:01:25

Depression can also result in this type of behavior. Don't give up on the cognitive therapy. There is a handbook out there just for this kind of behavior. I can't remember what it's called, but you may find it on the www.

Other things can be helpful too - like keeping the nails very short. Removing from the house any "instruments" that are sometimes used like tweezers, ect. Substituting the picking with another activity (like the zip lock bag or bubble wrap) each time the behavior is noted. Sitting (yes sitting) on one hand while using the other (as in during school work) helps. Making tally marks each time the behavior occurs and reviewing it makes it more obvious and may provide motivation not to give up on extinguishing it.

I know that Paxil is one drug that is prescribed for such behavior however, it is a problem if the child is BP. Inositol is also being experimented with, but caution again is needed. This behavior that some view as a compulsive one sometimes occurs with borderline personality disorder or body dysmorphic disorder and it may be worth talking to the pdoc about.

Hope it gets better soon.

Bonnie

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Response (10.1.)... by janetward7@gmail.com - 2008-03-28 07:34:58

Thanks Bonnie. We do keep the nails super short use lots of fidget toys already. I am going to start a detailed journal of the picking activity for the next month prior to the pdoc appt. Perhaps some medicine changes/additions are in order, and I'll look for that handbook you mentioned.

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Response (10.1.1.)... by rnmomo2@yahoo.com - 2008-03-28 19:33:30

There's a lot that can be done. Using a timer while in the bathroom, removing mirrors, keeping hands occupied at night during tv time, ect.. Don't give up, just keep trying!

Bonnie

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DISCUSSION: New to all this : pre-diagnosis 2008-04-02 15:00:34 2008-03-31 23:03:18

Hi!

I'm an Australian Mum of 4, and have been managing/struggling with our nmow 8 year old for most of his life. He was diagnosed with ADHD when he was 5, but things have gotten incredibly difficult lately, which led us back to the paedeatrician - and now there's a high chance he will be dxed with bipolar.

Aside from my head swimming with the possiblities and "life sentence" such a condition entails - I am struggling to continue to deal with him on a daily basis, without any medication or behavioural advice, and with a husband who works overseas for 5 weeks out of 8.

So I'm relieved to have found this board - there don't seem to be any of its kind in Australia!

I'm open for ANY advice you might care to share right now. Our son experiences rages several times a day, and these get quite violent. (yesterday he smashed the sliding glass door with a rock etc etc) Between rages and outbrusts he is incredibly irritable, defiant and unpleasant for much of the time, and when he's actually nice to be around, he is talking flat out and cannot and will not stop to listen or accept any interaction from anyone. He's just not "himself" at all any more - it's one extreme or the other. Always.

I am utterly drained from trying to deal with him and pre empt what he might do next. I'm 4 months pregnant and struggle already to carry him to his room before he gets completely out of control and hurts his younger siblings. I have tried restraining/holding him but this is becoming increasingly difficult as well. I am learning the "art" of not repsonding emortionally to him at all - but this means his younger siblings witness him "getting away" with terrible behaviour and then think they too can swear, shout, throw things, hurt each other and so on and so on.

Heck even the dog is scared of him!

We return to the paed's office in 2 weeks, to see his nurse with a family medical history, surveys complted by family members and teachers - and the offer of medication (mood stabiliser for now) so there is an end in sight.

But how do I survive the next 2 weeks, when I'm already completely exhausted and worn out? I don't trust him to be left with anyone else - so far NO ONE seems to understand that his behaiour is beyond his control and he cannot simply stop because I tell him to. I am not certain he will not hurt someone else, so I don't leave him with anyone - except when he's at school and they are aware of the possibilities.

Thankyou in advance for any help or advice you might have to share. I feel so alone and overwhelmed right now ............I am reassured to know there are others out there living this life!

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by tangles - 2008-03-31 23:25:42

Welcome to the website!

First: Do the siblings have a place they could go for a few days to get a break from their brother for now? It may be a good time for some sleepovers at grandma's house for them. This will help your peace of mind regarding their safety and will also make for a quieter environment for your son (I know...I have four also). Sometimes simple interaction with siblings can set off an unstable child.

Second: Go to the bookstore and buy The Explosive Child (or order on amazon). It will give you techniques to use now before your child stabilizes and on into stability. There is also a dvd by the same name that is good.

Third: Have you asked the doc what to do in the meantime? Call and express your concerns....is there anyway you can go back sooner? Why the need to wait two weeks? If things get too out of control he may need a stay in the hospital for his own safety.

Glad you found us!

tangles

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Response (2.)... by ksmith2793@sbcglobal.net - 2008-04-01 09:29:53

Greetings from CA !! Glad you've found us, as you see, you are not alone !

Am so sorry to hear about your troubles - - We get it, we've all been there.......

What about your son seeing a psychiatrist ?? In my opinion, Pediatrician's are not as "well versed" on brain issues such as bipolar as a child psychiatrist would be.

You will need some long-term support / help and finding a good psychiatrist will be very important.

I know you must be extremely busy - but I would also suggest you read THE BIPOLAR CHILD, by Dr.s Demitri and Janice Papolos.

There is a ton of great information and resources you will need.

It is so very difficult to deal with this illness alone. Since your husband is away for long periods, do you have any help from family or friends ?? This is the time I would definately reach out for help.

Take care Mum ! I would also encourage you to join in the online support group.

-Kathleen

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Response (3.)... by fizbin - 2008-04-01 10:16:36

You've come to a good place. There's a wealth of support and information on these boards. You might want to go to http://www.thebalancedmind.org/site/DocServer/treatment_guidelines.pdf?d... and download the treatment guidelines. This would help your doctor in treating your son.

Also we are in the process of forming an online support group for Australian members if you are interested email me at egruber@optonline.net and I will forward your information to the right place.

In the meantime the other posters have given you great advice. The Explosive Child and The Bipolar Child will be of great help to you if you can get hold of them.

Eileen

The Balanced Mind Foundation Parent to Parent volunteer

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Response (4.)... by kotocat - 2008-04-01 14:02:39

I hope you find this site a wealth of information as I have. I have found the online support group quite helpful. I highly recommend it.

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Response (4.1.)... by kellykay - 2008-04-01 14:59:03

I signed up for a support group, but nothing appears available. Does it take a while before one shows up for you to link to?

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Response (4.1.1.)... by kotocat - 2008-04-02 15:00:34

A message will come via E-MAIL. It was abit confusing at first. I just responded to the first BP message and asked how it worked. They were very welcoming and have explained every question. Good luck

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Response (5.)... by kellykay - 2008-04-01 14:57:14

I'm new to all this stuff too and unfortunately don't have a lot of advice at this point. But, I certainly can sympathize with you. You definitely have your hands full. I know I get to the point I don't know how much more I can handle. I can say I was given same advice and have ordered the books mentioned above. It is nice to come to a place where others are dealing with similar issues. I will gladly be here to listen when you need to talk and will keep you in my thoughts.

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DISCUSSION: BP an ADHD 2008-03-29 18:25:22 2008-03-28 20:13:16

how does it do to have a BP child on a stimulant that has BP he has been dx with BP ADHD but only currently on BP meds

thanks tonya

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by fizbin - 2008-03-28 22:20:03

Some kids can take a stimulant if they are stable on BP meds for a period of time. Some will get manic on them no matter how long they've been stable. My son is one of those who cannot take ADHD meds. Unfortunately the only way to know is to try. Proceed with caution, and be sure to chart his moods when the drug is added if it is.

Eileen

The Balanced Mind Foundation Parent to Parent Volunteer

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Response (2.)... by nschiman - 2008-03-29 09:03:03

This is a tough dual diagnosis. There are studies (Barbara Geller, MD in particular) that show that somewhere around 90% of kids with BP also have ADHD. My own daughter had significant attention deficits show up when we had neuropsych testing done a few months ago. The question is - are these distinct diagnoses or is the ADHD a symptom of BP. The jury is out on this. Dr. Nassir Ghaemi has a theory about the heirarchy of mental illness that suggests that one needs to treat in order of the hierarchy and only after the top level has been addressed do you proceed to treat disorders lower on the hierarchy. The progression is:

Mood Disorders

II.

Psychotic Disorders

III.

Anxiety Disorders

IV.

Personality Disorders

Other Disorders (e.g., ADHD, Eating Disorders, Conversion Disorders, Dissociative Disorders, Sexual Disorders)

Under this theory, a mood disorder such as BP or depression would be at the top of the hierarchy and should be fully addressed before considering diagnosis or treatment of ADHD.

As Eileen pointed out, kids respond differently and stimulants can be tricky in the presence of the BP diagnosis.

How stable is your son currently? How severe is the ADHD once you have achieved stability with the BP? These are some questions to consider as you weigh the pros and cons of adding another medication.

Best,

Nanci S.

The Balanced Mind Foundation Program Coordinator

nschiman@thebalancedmind.org

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Response (3.)... by kotocat - 2008-03-29 16:29:45

My experience has been that my daughter's medications seem to create symptoms simular to ADD. The adverse effects seem to mimic deficits often observed in children with ADD. Such as poor organizational skills, attention diffuculties, and executive function deficits.

These are just my personal thoughts.

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Response (3.1.)... by - 2008-03-29 18:25:22

I wonder if anyone here has trialed mifepristone - I'm going to ask daughter's pdoc about it. One of the authors (Young) is now head of psychiatry at UBC where we live.

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v29/n8/abs/1300471a.html

Rebecca

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DISCUSSION: Has anyone's child been seen by Dr. Papolos???? 2008-04-11 21:02:42 2008-04-06 21:01:48

Just curious to know if anyone out there has had their child seen by Dr. Papolos, author of The Bipolar Child. We are seriously considering taking our 8 year old daughter to New York to be seen by him and would appreciate any helpful feedback I can get. Thank you!!!

Mary (Mom to Shannon -8)

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by michasmom - 2008-04-06 23:28:54

One of the moms from our support group has taken her child. If you want I can copy your post there and see if I can get a response.

Chandra

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Response (1.1.)... by mronayne - 2008-04-07 05:41:09

Yes, please. That would be great!!! I appreciate it.

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Response (1.1.1.)... by michasmom - 2008-04-07 21:14:19

I posted it for you. We will see what happens.

Chandra

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Response (2.)... by cmdouc - 2008-04-11 21:02:42

7 yrs ago my dtr then 6 was dx by the local mental health clinic and their pdoc as adhd and prescribed the usual trial of stimulants with disastorous results. The stimulants activated her and should have resulted in hospitalization. The php program had her on depakote and zyprexa, but took blood levels 2hrs after dosing and told me 89 was a good level. When her out of control behavior continued they wanted to hospitalize. Having read The Bipolar Child and anything else I could find I realized finding the right pdoc was not going to be easy. We had already seen 2 who did not seem to be competent in dealing with bp. My husband sister is Bp and her pdoc had years of experience treating adults with dx but only adhd in children. At this time we did not want to hospitalize and dtr was homebound. We sent a request for consult with Dr. Papolos with the hope he could recommend a course of treatment his sisters Dr. could follow. We live in NE CT so we travel to his CT office. I think it cost about $1200 for the consult and written report. Of course it was out of pocket since it far exceeds the rates insurance will cover. I felt it was a thorough eval and report. Unfortunately my dtr is very complex and has had other dx added comorbid ADHD,RAD (she is adopted-my niece), PDD Asperger's, so stability is only measured in days, sometimes moments. Currently seeking RTC. Seems sometimes when seeking best possible care for dtr a specialist doesn't see whole picture rather focuses on their specialty. So for us Dr. Papolos bought us some time before eventually we had to put dtr in phos. Best of luck!

rosie,

dtr 13 , my alphabet soup kid

ds, 4, currently coping behaviors

dh, tired of drama

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DISCUSSION: Allergy Drug update 2008-03-31 08:47:59 2008-03-30 10:57:36

This week the drug company updated the labeling on Singulair. It now includes tremors, anxiousness, depression, and possible suicidal behavior. We all know breathing problems take precedence over behavioral issues but should be aware of these adverse effects.

Just wanted to share this.

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by naominjw - 2008-03-30 18:54:06

If it is like some other meds where it is due to an interaction with some people's genes, it should not be a worry for the people who have already been on it for a long time. Singulair has been a life-saver for my daughter. She absolutely cannot use things like Advair for her asthma. The Singulair helps the asthma, AND the allergies, AND the non-allergic hives. With everything else she's had bad reactions to, I sure am glad this wasn't one of them.

My sweet mom called me, alarmed, as soon as this news came out. I reassured her - if it hasn't caused this side-effect yet, I doubt it suddenly will.

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Response (2.)... by kotocat - 2008-03-31 08:47:59

Check out this site http://www.medications.com/se/singulair/inhaler

We all know breathing problems takes precedence over behavioral issues.

Just wanted to share this

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DISCUSSION: Daughter arrested 2008-04-03 21:27:05 2008-03-30 11:03:49

My oldest DD, who turned 17 last week, was arrested for shoplifting at Walmart yesterday. They have booked her into ADULT county jail. She had almost $200 worth of stuff in her purse. She will be arrainged (sp?) on Monday. We may bail her out then, so she doesn't lose her job or credits for this semester. She has never been in trouble with the law before. I found a lot of stuff in her room last night that I think was stolen. I guess she has been doing it for a while. The child has EVERYTHING any teenager could ever want! Why would she do something so STUPID and risk losing it all?! She will now lose her liscense, car, phone and possibly her job (which she loves and is the best thing she has going for her). She really doesn't even seem apologetic! I cried all day yesterday. Just when it seems like things can't get any worse, it does! I don't know how much more I can take!

Keep us in your prayers!

Cyndi

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by michasmom - 2008-03-30 11:14:58

Cyndi,

I am sorry your daughter is going through this. Has she been manic? I know judgement can be impaired in that frame of mind.

I know this is hard, but I would like to offer a bit of encouragement. She is 17 and you still have some say with her. Maybe you can intervene if this has been going on for some time. Once she is 18, you may not have that input. Stealing can become addictive. They do not steal because they need the item they are stealing, they often steal because of the rush they get from getting away with it.

Chandra

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Response (1.1.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-03-30 12:42:49

I have noticed little signs of her going downhill for several weeks, but I think I was ignoring it more than I normally would because of all the stuff we have been going through with Taryn and CPS. Her pdoc increased her Prozac last week. I wonder if that had anything to do with her behavior. She has never been formally dx'd BP, just depression and borderline personality. She's been on Prozac, Abilify and Adderall for quite some time (over 2 years). She has never really had the same symptoms that Taryn has (cycling, rages, etc.) She's been acting reckless, not sleeping much, always has to be "doing" something. I think shopping and stealing are like a drug to her. I think it gives her a temporay "high". She doesn't seem to care what the consequence might be if she gets caught.

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Response (2.)... by kotocat - 2008-03-30 11:35:28

I agree with what Chandra said. Since this is her first offense maybe she will be let off with just "a slap on her hand".

Hang in there

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Response (3.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-03-30 12:21:16

don't bail her out!! As bad as you may want to- don't. Why? Well, because she is so close to 18 she needs to go thru this NOW. She must face the consequences of her behavior and TRULY learn how serious this type of thing is!! If you bail her out she may think you always will and so what if she does this? My parents bailed me out too and then when crap REALLY hit the fan I was 18 and they couldn't help me anymore! I ended up paying an even heftier price- a 10 year sentence of probation-for stealing. Of course, I ended screwing that up too, but that is another story. ESPECIALLY since she doesn't seem remorseful at all I would make her sit. Most probably she will get out on her own recognasence on Monday or Tuesday anyhow. As far as school-call her in sick for those days. Also, could she be doing this cuz she feels her sister is getting all the attention? Just a thought. I KNOW this is the last thing you guys needed right now and I am sorry!!! I hope CPS doesn't get wind of this too! Tough love guys!! Praying for you and sending LOTS of ((((HUGS!!!))))

Cheri

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Response (3.1.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-03-30 12:34:52

The way the jail explained it to us yesterday, if she doesn't get bailed out, she will be there for at least two weeks, until she has a court date. If she is there that long, she WILL lose her job and WILL have to repeat the semester. She has already missed 4 or 5 times this semester being sick.

I think we have been so focused on Taryn, that I didn't see the signs that Tiffani was going downhill.She has done several reckless, impulsive thing in the last few months, but I just ignored it. I should have known it was coming to a head!

We are so torn with what to do! I want her to learn,but at the same point, I don't want her to mess up her entire future. She loves her job and they love her. She never misses a day, goes in on her days off, was planning on staying there through college. So hard to know how "tough" to be.

Thanks for your support, prayers and hugs!

Cyndi

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Response (3.1.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-03-30 12:38:46

Two weeks?!!! OMG!!! Won't she be able to OR at the arraignment? What state are ya'all in? Is there someone you can call today to ask about OR at the arraignment tomorrow?

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Response (3.1.1.1.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-03-30 14:56:15

She is supposed to be arraigned tomorrow at 8 am and then she will either be bailed out or stay until sentencing in 2-3 weeks. We don't even get to be present at the hearing tomorrow. It is done behind closed doors at the jail. This is all so new to us. We have NEVER had any experience with the legal system at all. How do you advocate for your child when we can't talk to her or see her until after the hearing? It's ironic: I took her to the dr Friday and he won't see her until she is 18 without me there, but in the eyes of the law, she is an adult at 17.

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Response (3.1.1.1.1.)... by michasmom - 2008-03-30 16:20:35

I could be wrong and I know things vary from state to state, but you as her parents should be able to sit in on the arraignment. I doubt the judge will keep her in jail for two weeks for a first time offense. My guess is that they will release her to your custody with certain stipulations. Even so, sitting in jail for a few days may do her some good especially if she is not remorseful.

As far as her job goes, can you call and speak with her boss? Maybe he/she will be understanding and hold her job for her.

Chandra

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Response (4.)... by - 2008-03-30 13:27:53

"She's been acting reckless, not sleeping much, always has to be "doing" something. " As there is bipolar in the family, and your daughter is on two meds that can cause these sypmtoms in those with bp (as well as those who don't have bp), it is very possible that her behavior results from an adverse med reaction. Especially as the prozac was recently upped.

I help to teach a course based on NAMI's Family to Family, and it is stressed in there that tough love/ultimatiums is not the way to go when dealing with those who have "mental illness".

As an analogy, if someone has a broken leg, the symptom of which is they can't walk, one wouldn't let them face the consequence of that symptom by allowing them to go hungry because they can't walk to the fridge. Silly example, but it's just to help us remember that with disorders affecting the brain, the behaviorial symptoms are not chosen, they are the effect of the illness. Even if there is some free will operating when deciding to shop lift or not, the real symptom is the inability to make rational good choices because the brain isn't functioning correctly.

Something like Collaborative Problem Solving, as described in The Explosive Child, helps resolve problems and IMO would reduce chances of bad choices snowballing because the ill person felt backed into a corner or threatened by family or authority.

That is what is taught in the course anyway.

Best,

Rebecca

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Response (4.1.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-03-30 14:50:29

Rebecca,

What is "IMO"? Can you send me more information on the class you teach? You can email me at dcttmckay@sbcglobal.net. We are really torn on what we should do for her. My husband is close to kicking her out. I want to send her somewhere like RTC. Part of me wants to get her out, tell her that if it happens again, she's out, send her back to school and work, and pray for the best. It's so hard to know what to do.

Cyndi

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Response (4.1.1.)... by - 2008-03-30 16:44:09

Hi Cindi

Sorry, IMO just means "in my opinion".

I'm in Canada, and the organization that I volunteer with is the Schizophrenia Society (which addresses bipolar disorder, depression and anxiety disorders as well as schizophrenia). Their course is called Strengthening Families Together. But it is based on the course Family to Family developed by the US organization National Association for the Mentally Ill - NAMI (They made a political decision to use the term Mentally Ill, something that The Balanced Mind Foundation decided not to do).

So you, being in the US, would be looking for the Family to Family course, and support and possibly legal advice or direction, from NAMI http://www.nami.org/

There is a lot of good info on the site, and I hope you will be able to find close to home resources in your state.

I hope this helps.

Rebecca

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Response (4.1.1.1.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-03-30 17:36:09

Thank you, Rebecca!

I will see what I can come up on that site. I have the feeling that this won't be the last time we have to deal with the legal system!

Cyndi

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Response (5.)... by kotocat - 2008-03-30 14:13:44

A few years ago we had a consult with a lawyer. We involved her in our crisis planning. Fournately, we haven't had to enlist her services. That not to imply we won't ever need to, but she's 14 and has less freedom than a 17 year old. She had suggested if she ever did get into legal trouble we would push to have her committed to the hospital to avoid sentencing if the offense allowed for that. Maybe it would help get all your documentation in order. Then if needed you can have it summitted to the court. This might help explain her behavior and perhaps make it easier for you daughter to be sentenced fairly.

I havn't any experience will the legal system. Just offering suggestions.

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Response (6.)... by todboat@aol.com - 2008-03-30 15:52:43

ILl be keeping this in prayer. i am so sorry you have this to deal with.

Lori

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Response (6.1.)... by pumpkin - 2008-03-30 19:14:07

I am so sorry you are dealing with this!! I agree with the post that it very well may be that her behavior is due to a "manic state" she is in due the the wrong meds. Since this is her first incident, I'd bail her out and focus on getting her meds right. Tell her though, that you are helping her find out what is wrong with her and she also needs to help herself best she can. You may not be bailing her out the next time. Just my thoughts. Hope this helps some. Keep us posted.

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Response (7.)... by boomom - 2008-03-30 19:25:18

You have your hands full that's for sure. I'm so sorry to hear about your struggles.

I'd be very hesitant to write this behavior off as only BP symptoms or medication reactions. You said it looks like she's been doing this for a while and the prozac was just upped last week. It makes one wonder.

Even though DD has BP we work to let her have natural consequences. She has to learn to recognize symptoms and ask for help while she's younger than 18. Once she's 18 (or gets in trouble and is tried as an adult) the BP dx isn't going to be a get out of jail free card. I hope I don't sound harsh but I believe our DD needs to learn to live with her dx and in spite of it.

Our DD was put in DH for two days for her behaviors and it completely turned her around. Completely. She's now got all A's, is cooperating with most everybody and doing well. She's realized that she has to own her illness and she has responsibility for it. She uses the tools she's been taught and that are there for her. We realized that normal teenaged behaviors shouldn't all be written of as BP behaviors.

If your DD has med issues then those need to be addressed. People who shoplift have consequences and she shouldn't use it as a solution for her issues. Hopefully you and she can learn from this and move forward in her treatment now that she's so close to 18.

You're a good parent. Don't let guilt cause you to do something that might not be in her or your, best interest. I would support her thru this crisis with love and see how it's handled in the courts. If you need to intervene then do so. If not, you may want to let this unfold as it will. Wishing you much luck and some peace in the near future with both of your girls.

Peace,

Alyson

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Response (7.1.)... by - 2008-03-30 22:17:32

We all have different parenting styles, and have to keep within our particular comfort zones. Also, each parent knows the underlying personality type and behavioural pattern of their own child, and so would recognize what is out of character.

I know that when my own daughter has adverse reactions to meds, or is simply unstable, she processes and behaves in uncharacteristic ways. The big goal for us is to have her recognize the warning signals and get help asap. So far so good knock on wood.

We've never had to deal with the judicial system personally, but here (BC) they do take diagnosed illness into account, and treat the situation accordingly. That doesn't mean a free pass, but there is not much point at throwing the book at someone who is symptomatic.

One thing we can certainly all agree on is that the ultimate goal is to raise our kids to become responsible adults.

Rebecca

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Response (8.)... by rnmomo2@yahoo.com - 2008-03-31 11:25:54

Do you think there is a compulsive thing going on? I have heard of this behavior as a side effect of some psychotropic drugs. Or is it a cry for attention and help? I think she has a defense if she is being treated. I hope that it gets worked out soon.

Bonnie

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Response (9.)... by bmrattray@carevariance.com - 2008-03-31 18:30:03

I am really sorry that you and your family are going through this type of situation. I would like to say that although it may be a "side effect" of her medication or a possible manaic episode, it also could be a teenager looking for attention. It wasn't long ago that I was a teenager (I'm 24) and I knew a lot of kids from great homes that did stupid stuff and most of the time it was to get attention and noticed.

Your daughter may just be looking for attention, since your other child takes up a lot of your time and energy, or she may just be acting out as a lot of teenages do. She seems to be pushing her boundaries to see how far she can go, which teenagers often do. Maybe this experience will be a real eye opener for her and teach her that she will be an adult soon, and the consequences get much worse as an adult.

You sound like a caring parent. Just be there for her and understand that even good kids mess up. Good luck!

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Response (10.)... by gorman@cybermesa.com - 2008-03-31 19:53:27

Cyndi,

I'm so sorry you are going through this on top of everything else. Support and good vibes are coming your way from New Mexico.

Erika

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Response (10.1.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-04-01 10:27:30

Thanks, Erika! I need all the good vibes I can get! I'll try to email you tonight.

Cyndi

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Response (11.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-04-01 10:00:09

and sent her little butt to school today, where she belongs! She did not lose her job, thank God! We have to go to court on Friday morning. She hated jail, though she said it wasn't as bad as RTC. The worse part for her was not having her hair dryer, curling iron and makeup! We have taken away her drivers license, car, cell phone, TV and computer priveleges until she is 18. I left a message for her pdoc yesterday, but he hasn't called back (go figure!). We had a very long talk with DD last night and let her know if it ever happens again, we WILL NOT bail her out and WILL NOT pay a dime of her court fees or fines. She will probably have to drop out of school, get her GED, lose her job, ruin her future (she wants to be a nurse). We are sick of it. Can't take much more. The next 11 months are going to be very, very long!

Thanks for all your prayers and advice!

Cyndi

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Response (11.1.)... by - 2008-04-01 10:15:15

Sounds like you handled it just right. I hope everything settles down soon, and you got a BIG thank you from your daughter.

Best,

Rebecca

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Response (11.2.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-01 11:29:58

(((((((Cyndi & Hubby!!!))))))) :)

Cheri & Hubby

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Response (11.2.1.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-04-01 13:32:54

Thanks, Cheri!

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Response (11.3.)... by supernova - 2008-04-01 13:51:24

I wouldn't flat out ban DL, car usage, cell phone, TV and computer until she is 18. Give her something to work for, an incentive to be responsible and earn your trust back. Give her small steps that she can take to earn back privileges. If she has nothing to work toward, and no recreational or "fun" activities she will find something (or someone) to fill that void.

I'm sorry you family is going through this. It sounds like a cry for attention to me.

Hang in there...

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Response (12.)... by andyl - 2008-04-01 15:25:05

I don't know how you and your dh are coping! I would be literally tearing my hair out! Good luck and best wishes and I pray that your girls will settle down and get better!

Andrea

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Response (13.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-04-02 09:47:12

I finally got a call back from DD pdoc. He stopped the Prozac and will see her in 2 1/2 weeks to discuss what to do now. I'm hoping he will add a mood stabilizer like Depakote or Trileptal. She made the comment last night that she thinks she is bipolar like her sister. She said she gets sad then mad then happy (sounds like cycling to me!). She is always agitated, irritable and restless. Anyway, hopefully we can get a proper diagnosis and treatment before she turns 18. Thanks for all your support!

Cyndi

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Response (13.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-02 16:01:25

She could very well be with her sister's being as bad as it sounds like it is. With my 2- Brianna is almost 15 and she is on the extreme severe side; Colton will be 12 in 2 weeks and his isn't NEAR as bad as hers. At least, not yet, hormones could spin him out of control yet. I PRAY not, but won't be surprised if it happens. One on the severe end is enough for me!!! I hope God agrees! :)

Cheri

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Response (13.1.1.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-04-02 17:51:27

Sometimes I think God has way too much faith in me! :eek:

Cyndi

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Response (13.1.1.1.)... by - 2008-04-02 18:04:57

You might want to google "how to taper prozac" or SSRI's or some such, or ask her pdoc as stopping cold turkey can lead to problems. Or you could do a search here.

Best,

Rebecca

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Response (14.)... by gorman@cybermesa.com - 2008-04-02 20:06:28

Cyndi

thank heavens! I'm so relieved to hear she didn't lose her job and is back in school. We all deserve a second chance...and third, and fourth, and...

That plus having the CPS crisis calmed down a little bit must be somewhat of a relief. HANG IN THERE! Big hugs

Erika

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Response (15.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-04-03 16:32:08

Wanted to update everybody on the outcome of court today. We went in for arraignment and they offered her a plea bargain. She got 6 months probation with deferred adjudication (sp?), $400 fines + court fees, and 24 hours community service. I think they were pretty easy on her because of her age and it being a first offense. She will have to pay all fees and fines herself over the next 5 months. A condition of her probation is that she stay in school full-time, maintain passing grades in all subjects and keep her job. I am pleased with that and hope she doesn't mess up again!

Thanks for all your support and prayers!

Cyndi

(by the way, Taryn may be home from Meridell in the next few days. Insurance has denied past Saturday for her. We are appealing it, but we can't afford private pay at $440/day if the appeal doesn't come through by then.)

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Response (15.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-03 17:18:53

YEAH!!!! She will have to be VERY VERY CAREFUL on deferred!!! That was how I screwed up!! :worried: And if she does then they WILL throw the book at her! NO STEALING GIRL!!!

On Taryn- can you transfer to another phosp from there? Or perhaps an RTC? I can't believe your ins. is doing this!!! :angry: Can't they see from previous claims how ill and hard to treat she is?!!! JERKS! They will just continue to pay later, instead of a larger amount right now and less later- that makes more sense! Maybe call them and say so? What about the pros at Merridell? Can't they "twist arms" harder? Won't the appeal delay them "kicking her out"?

Cheri

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Response (16.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-04-03 21:06:49

We can't transfer because they say she doesn't meet criteria anymore, but, I can guarantee you that at the first sign of instability, I will take her right back to the phosp and then insist on her being transferred back to Meridell! I hate the way insurance companies control the health care system!! The docs at Meridell say that she is clinically stable and feel safe discharging her. Of course, they feel like they could help her if she was there longer, but they don't seem willing to fight to keep her there. We could appeal, but if they aren't fighting with me, it wouldn't do any good. At least she is on a whole different med regimen and maybe she will be more stable. I guess we'll see.

Cyndi

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Response (16.1.)... by gorman@cybermesa.com - 2008-04-03 21:27:05

Cyndi,

I'm just furious about the insurance situation. You and I are both facing similar garbage with our insurance--it's so much crap that THEY dictate a child's medical care. We had a conversation with our insurance company yesterday too, telling them that sure, they can make Dane be discharged from Meridell, but as soon as the first sign of trouble occurs, he'll be right back in the hospital and we'll be right back where we started. We asked them if they don't realize how HARD it is on these kids (and us families) to adjust to every new hospital, every different environment, etc. and that it is just inhumane to take these fragile kids and play this game with them. Ummm, yeah, but I need to remember that it is ALL about the bottom line for these companies. Heaven forbid some executive won't get a million dollar bonus because my kid needed some care!!! GRRRR!

Erika, New Mexico

Son, Dane, 11, BP, 750mg Lithium, 20 mg Abilify

Daughter, Kelsey, 16, no problems

Son, Ethan 18, No problems

StepSon Bill, 14, Hearing impaired

Husband, Bill, Saint

Tons of animals

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DISCUSSION: Expecting too much from a pdoc 2008-04-03 17:24:31 2008-03-30 19:53:22

I am struggling as to whether to keep my son's (16 yr b/p) pdoc. He has been seeing him the two years he has been back from residential. I specifically chose him because he had admitting priviliges to the psychiatric hospital of choice. When my son did spiral out of control the pdoc was very detached and suggested I bring him to the emergency room. I expressed concern of bringing him in and then having him present "absolutely fine" (it's happened before) I asked him if he could admit him directly and he claimed it was after hours for him to admit. The next day I called and said I was bringing him in today could I go right to admitting and he said no you have to go through emergency. After waiting 9 hours in the emergency they finally admitted him. I did speak to his pdoc who did get in touch with the floor doctor. He never saw him in the hospital and has never contacted me to see how he is doing.

He was released from the hospital after it was discovered one of his meds had been missing for two weeks (my error) and I never heard from his doctor again. Do I seek a more involved pdoc or is this typical behavior? My son has never missed a monthly appointment in 2 years which consists of a 15 minute session and prescription refill. He has an appointment this week with him.

Thanks for any input.

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by boomom - 2008-03-30 20:52:26

I would express my concerns to the pdoc and see what he says. My DD's pdocs have never contacted me over the 9 yrs we've been treating her BP. They've trusted us to let them know what is going on when we needed to. They've always returned calls and responded to questions and isssues. Good luck!

Peace,

Alyson

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Response (2.)... by fizbin - 2008-03-30 22:25:26

I would agree with Alyson. Raise your concerns but I've never had a pdoc contact me directly except for once and it was unusual. Most of the time they've waited for me to call and let them know what was going on.

Eileen

The Balanced Mind Foundation Parent to Parent Volunteer

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Response (3.)... by jistac - 2008-03-31 07:01:33

No matter what you decide I feel it is your obligation to talk to the pdoc and express your concerns. Even if you leave his practice at least he will have a concrete reason for why and that will make things less awkward if you should run into him again.

But I have serious doubts that a pdoc that only sees your son for 15 minutes once a month can in any way make decisions about medications and treatment. Especially for a growing bipolar child. It takes almost 15 minutes for a child just to settle in and get comfortable and switch gears. Even if the pdoc was psychic and empathic I doubt he could really get a good read after only 15 minutes.

Our pdoc sees us for an hour or more either two times a month or more depending on what we are dealing with. He sees our son every week for an hour. This type of intensive monitoring and care is really helpful especially once the child hits adolescence and everything is shifting and the issues become way more complex. I would look for a pdoc who is willing to be more involved with the case. And I would interview them by asking specific questions about how they handle things when problems arise.

Jistac

CAM Board Moderator

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Response (3.1.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-03-31 10:28:11

Your PSYCHIATRIST sees him for over an hour, or is he a psychologist? We have had several different psychiatrists over the years and 10-15 minutes is an average time for them to spend with my kids. Sometimes, it has been as little as 5 minutes for a med follow-up. I assumed that was normal.

Cyndi

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Response (4.)... by trehouse@optonline.net - 2008-03-31 10:44:28

I'd be broke. With our pdocs billing at $380 +/hour, it isn't a good use of time or money for them to see kids weekly for an hour. Most see kids every few weeks for 1/2 hour appts, and then tdocs do actual therapy, if therapy is warranted for a given child.

Sam in CT

Max, 6, lamictal/invega

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Response (5.)... by nancyo - 2008-03-31 11:58:50

Unfortunately I think 15 min sessions are common. My son's last Pdoc had 15 min sessions about once every couple of months (if 'stable'). He was the same pdoc who saw my son in Intensive outpatient therapy program. This wasn't ideal, of course, but I think it is a function of the 'managed care' system. AT least he was accessible by email.

Nancy

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Response (6.)... by smallmom - 2008-03-31 14:03:24

I have 3 children who each see a different child psychiatrist (NOT psychologist) an hour a week for psychotherapy and med management. We don't use psychologists at all. Our feeling was that the only way the doctors medicating would really know how the kids were doing was if they saw them frequently. The pdocs rely on their own clinical observations and judgment in addition to parental input. It has worked out very well -- 2 of the 3 are very stable. The 3rd is coming along.

Julia in MD, mom to:

Jacob 14.5, BP, migraines (Lamictal, Zonegran, Seroquel, Propranolol)

Annie 13, mood disorder (Lamictal, Lexapro)

Maya 9.5, anxiety/eating disorder (Zyprexa, Remeron)

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Response (6.1.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-03-31 17:29:08

Wow, that's great! I didn't know there was a pdoc out there that would do that! I know that there are none around here like that. You are very fortunate.

Cyndi

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Response (7.)... by caroline.mooney@comcast.net - 2008-03-31 20:31:46

I've been following this thread with interest. Our 1st pdoc, (pre-bp dx) would see dd for 15 mins 1x/mo for med eval, 2nd pdoc (quackadoodle) created the med pyramid that sent dd into into horrendous instability and first phosp visit. Also 15 mins per visit. Third pdoc would see her a minimum of 30 mins 2x/mo, would return phone calls in crisis (didn't charge us). Now, we see a fantastic pdoc at Children's Memorial. She sees dd for an hour 1x per month (first 3 visits were every 2 weeks until we got a little more stable). Interestingly, cost for the first three pdocs was exactly the same per Blue Cross. Cost for 1 hour visits with new pdoc are only 40% more for 100% more time. I think that pdocs at teaching hospitals give more time and are more thorough.

Caroline

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Response (8.)... by bigbird - 2008-03-31 21:18:51

Thanks for you input. My son does see a therapist on a weekly basis so I don't feel the need for the extra time with the pdoc. I am going to address my concerns about his detachment during crisis. If I am not satisfied with his answer I am going to try and find someone who will be able to meet our needs. It is just so frustrating to start all over. If this is typical I may as well find a pdoc in our plan since his meds are pretty stable now and he hasn't had any changes in a while.

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Response (8.1.)... by boomom - 2008-04-02 06:28:09

Did you have a chance to talk with him yet? I know it can be intimidating to do so. I remember shaking the first time I questioned DD's pdoc 9 yrs ago. LOL! I'm glad you're willing to change pdocs if necessary to get your DS the best treatment available. It's good to try new things sometimes.

Peace,

Alyson

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Response (9.)... by jistac - 2008-04-01 07:09:11

I understand that many pdocs only seem kids for 15-30 minutes due to managed care and expect the tdoc to be doing the therapy with the child. I suppose this could potentially work if you had a really good tdoc-pdoc team that were in constant communication with one another. But that communication takes time. I could also see this working if you have a child that is easily stabilized on medication and is not a difficult case.

But I doubt that this type of care would of resulted in a child like my son getting stable. Our son has a language based learning disability and just getting a read on what his mood was or what was causing him problems was often a challenge that simply could not be fit into a 15 minute spot. Our medical bills are indeed huge even with a very good health plan in place and living in a state with mental health parity. But over time what I have learned is that if I am cheap about pdoc visits I end up with more emergency pages to our son's doctor. I suspect that with another doctor we would of had many hospital admissions over the years. And although this would of been less expensive for us in the long run because the our insurance would cover emergency room visits, it would not of been optimal for our child. Which makes me wonder if anyone at the health insurance companies is really thinking this through. This is why in many cases health costs are through the roof. Appropriate care is denied so that the ERs end up doing the repair work.

There were many times that our meeting with our son's pdoc for long sessions was what was needed to prevent our son from becoming completely unglued and in need of residential and hospital care. And it is crazy because the insurance company won't pay for sessions over an hour but they will easily foot the bill for the thousands of dollars it takes for us to bring our son to the ER and have him admitted to a psych hospital. Does that make sense to anyone? I have tried to argue this with the insurance folks to get them to pay for the additional time we spend with the pdoc or tdoc with no success.

Anyways I would love to do a survey and find out how the time the pdoc spends with a child and the parents relates to the number of times the child is hospitalized over the years. Our son has only been hospitalized once and that was due to something he ingested that threw his chemistry off and our regular pdoc was away on vacation.

Would the original poster have had to go to the expense of taking her child to the ER and transferring them to a hospital if her pdoc had spent an hour on the phone with the mom talking about her son, what she was seeing and what changes could of caused his recent instability. Maybe in that conversation they would of figured out together about the medication mistake, it could of been corrected and a hospital visit could of been prevented.

I am just thinking aloud here. Maybe others have comments on this that may help my thinking on this.

I strongly recommend that anyone who has in interest in this read Jerome Groopman's book (just out in paperback) "How Doctors Think" because it really drills in the importance of chit-chat in the medical process and also drills home the importance of having a doctor that does not rush to conclusions but takes the time to really think through what is going on.

Jistac

CAM Board Moderator

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Response (10.)... by boomom - 2008-04-01 07:59:12

I don't know what the magic number of minutes is for a pdoc to see and help treat a child with BP. Our pdoc has spent anywhere from 15-30 minutes with our DD when we see him. He does not do therapy (only pdocs trained in therapy should be doing therapy, which means they have a degree in it) only med management.

However, we're responsible for communicating with him as much as he is with us about issues. We use many tools to accommodate this I thought I'd share in case it might help anyone else.

1. The school communicates any issues to us via email as well as a phone call when they occur. This is forwarded to the pdoc by us. This allows him a perspective of another adult dealing with DD and often gives him insight without our biases (afterall, she's our DD and we love her and sometimes slant our view of her behaviors and moods according to our experiences with her and the school is generally more objective). It also kills two birds with one stone - a written account of what's going on at school for IEP meetings etc.

2. If we have any issues with her meds, moods and/or behaviors we chart them for a few days and then send an email to him. He reads it between appointments and responds with ideas or possible med changes.

3. We write down questions as they come up instead of waiting to the last minute. This way when we go see him it's more efficient. Some things happen and then fall away with our DD. No need to make calls or bring it up in an appointment if it seemed a teen-aged behavioral thing rather than BP related.

4. Bloodwork results and other test results are sent to us via email as well. Then we're not spending time in the appt going over them when there's no action needed. Abnormal results are called to us and followed with an email.

5. All this written communication allows him to simply print the note with the date/time stamp for her file to go over as needed instead of grabbing her chart, writing it down and refiling it. He has the secretary file it for him after he prints it.

At appts we only discuss topics that need to be. I can't imagine seeing him weekly as most meds take at least a couple of weeks to get going and it seems to not be an efficient use of their time. But that's me. I'm extremely busy. So is he. He appreciates that I respect his time.

I also know as my DD has gotten older all the appts etc embarrass her and she loves this way of doing things as it doesn't take time from her doing what she wants and she feels more "normal". She's also learning how to take care of herself with these techniques because she's easily copied on anything she needs to know.

Just some thoughts that might help! Good luck!

Peace,

Alyson

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Response (10.1.)... by jistac - 2008-04-01 08:22:36

Alyson,

Does you pdoc charge for time spent doing all the email (reading and writing it)? If he doesn't then you are VERY lucky. In our area most doctors now have specific charges for time spent doing email. And one problem with this is that insurance will not cover emails. Another issue many doctors have is privacy. Many are very reluctant to send confidential information, like blood work results to a patient electronically because of privacy laws. Email is probably the least secure form of communication. I know that our school district has recently made a policy stating that emails from school should not contain specific information about a child, because of concerns about privacy and problems that have resulted from doing this in the past.

As for pdoc's and therapy, I believe that learning therapeutic techniques is part of of any pyschiatric residency program, but I could be wrong. And things could of changed in the past 2 decades and my information might be out of date.

I also wanted to add that one of the stories Jerome Groopman talks about in his book speaks to the challenge that sometimes exists in teasing apart the physical from the psychological. With our son this is definitely a challenge we are coping with right now. Our son has a problem with urination that does not seem to have a biological cause and it is tempting to label it as an OC symptom. But our pediatrician is just not 100% comfortable with that. So we continue to plow away at it. Our son has more urology appts and our pdoc continues to try to ask questions to get to see if we can uncover any clues to the source of the problem (either psychological or biological). I believe this is often the case with psychiatric patients and as with all complicated medical cases there is the risk of ignoring a real and potentially serious physical problem by labeling it psychiatric. And there is a the risk of making a psychiatric problem worse by focusing on looking for a biological cause for the problem. A tdoc would not necessarily be of use in this detective work given that they would not have the medical knowledge or training to ask the right questions around the issue.

It is tricky business. But every case is definitely individual and unique. It sounds like your daughter is doing GREAT. KUDOS to all of you. And it is fantastic that the system you have works so well. I would however prepare your daughter for the fact that another pdoc might not be so willing to communicate with her electronically. Especially if she moves to another part of the country where that practices is actively discouraged.

Jistac

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Response (11.)... by boomom - 2008-04-01 09:00:08

Jistac - I work in the medical field and here in Cleveland almost all communication is done over the internet/emails. In fact, the major medical centers here use what's called eCharts. It's secure. My DH is a programmer and all banking is done over the internet including that done with the Federal Govt. You may want to check your resources as to the security aspect as it's not what you've experienced so far.

This is the way all major medical centers are moving as of this date and it's going to spread to the smaller community hospitals as well. And it's a Green Initiative (you know, for saving the Earth) as well.

Our school have also moved to all information for the students being updatable and available over the internet. I know we live in a progressive area but we're definitely not the first. You can even get emails about whether or not your child reported to a class at school during the day including tardies and absences to said classes.

The internet can be hacked. But firewalls are what's being depended on for security and they're pretty secure. This is also the age of online therapy and pdoc consults. (I'm not endorsing that just saying it's available.)

As to charging, our pdoc does not. But we're talking about less than 15 - 30 minutes extra per month. Our insurance would cover it the same as a phone consultation as it's electronic and over the phone lines. If an ins co refused I'd take it higher at the company and not just stop with the customer service rep who has no idea about BP usually and the treatment forms we have access to.

Medical results between the pdoc and the ped are sent to both so both have them. The urinating problem would be more quickly solved here as they both could work in tandem and make notes on the chart when reviewing test results. This makes it more efficient for everyone.

I'd also question any psychiatrist who's willing to talk on the phone but not do emails due to charging for it.

Also, DD will continue her treatment as an adult in the same manner here in the hospitals we use. So she gets coached on it now and will feel more comfortable when she does it on her own. As her guardian and POA for her health and mental care (which we've already arranged with an attorney who will handle it) we'll also be copied on anything that's transmitted. This saves the pdoc from calling us and her so they like that.

Peace,

Alyson

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Response (11.1.)... by jistac - 2008-04-01 21:45:01

Alyson in our area every hospital has their own IT. So if all your medical care occurs at one facility (such as Mass General) then all your doctors have access to all your records. But if you go over to another Harvard Operated hospital such as Children's it is an entirely different IT and the two systems can not talk to one another. If you switch hospitals around here you be better be prepared to get hard copies of things like your mamograms to bring with you. I suppose that is one way they keep patients in their grip.

I read your post with amusement because the Urologist that we saw last week had a complete hissy fit because he couldn't figure out how to put in a lab order for our son. Our son was amused to see this adult-doctor get so angry and so upset and then try to deal with his anger when he eventually had to go get an IT person to assist him. He said to the IT person through gritted teeth, "Okay I am trying not to scream and loose my temper with this."

So anyways it is interesting to see that everything in Cleveland is all coordinated and the individual hospitals are all using the same systems. Here there are so many hospitals all with different boards competing for patients and doctors and students. So perhaps that is why there is so much diversity and less coordination. It is the disadvantage of living in a medical HUB.

As for email well no email is really secure. If you use AOL or GMAIL or YaHOO or any other public server than you emails exist not just on your computer and the computer of the person you are communicating with but also on a computer owned by the server you use. Warrants can be made to recover emails you yourself might of deleted but that remain on the servers computer. And the laws around this are pretty vague especially with attempts by this administration to make it easier for the government to have access to this information.

One reason the school systems around here have banned email from being used is that more than one parent (me included) have used email in legal cases against the school systems. The schools got smart and realized that their teachers were leaving a nasty paper trail that was making them vulnerable once lawyers got involved. Doctors don't want to use email for the same reason. They are fearful that their instructions or advice will be misinterpreted or that they will miss vital information in the patients affect that will cause them to misdiagnose and therefore make them legally vulnerable.

BTW, our pdoc does use email and will respond to small brief questions and not necessarily charge for that time. I also use email for med refills and appt changes and stuff like that.

Well it is very interesting to hear that things are different in another city. I will have to ask a friend of ours who is a surgeon in St Louis what it is like there. But for now I am stuck with the medical system and Hospital IT we have.

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Response (11.1.1.)... by boomom - 2008-04-02 06:25:27

Jistac, thank you for sharing.

I didn't mean to imply that all the systems are interconnected - just that they're internet available and online. Most tests are in a digital format as well. This makes it easier to send to another hosp. The eChart intiative is one that's booming. T hosps compete with each other for patients.

Also, I agree one should never use a public email service like yahoo etc for that kind of thing. You need a 128 bit encrypted email server and service for that to be sure it's secure. I pay $19.95 a yr for one and it's got more memory and is safe due to the encryption.

It's interesting about the school in your area. If they're willing to put in in writing on paper why would they think that sending an email leaves them more exposed than writing it and mailing it etc? I too use all the emails to place in DD's file and not have to spend a lot of time organizing info for that either. The docs as well. From a legal standpoint, it's all the same to a court - writing a letter or emailing.

Hum...all our med changes etc for DD have to be sent in writing for just the reason you mentioned - what if I misunderstood the med or dose change (especially when upping and just using the same script) or what if they misspoke and meant to say something else? Writing it gives them the opportunity to rethink what they said and review it prior to sending it. I work in the OR and you wouldn't believe how many things are said for orders for the patients by the attending to the residents and how they can mess it up! LOL!

For the pdoc, which was the original poster's query, it's been easier, more timely and provides a much more accurate method for the docs to talk to us and us to them - and to each other. No fuss, no muss. I run a support group for those who are caregivers for those with MI and they all have moved to the same approach and so far it's working well. I think it's important to share anything that works for a person so that others can try it and see if it works for them. Anything to make our lives easier and get our kids the care they need. I think getting everything in writing is best for all parties concerned for everyone's protection. Email is a tool that can make changes etc be documented more quickly instead of snail mail so our kids get what they need more quickly.

Peace,

Alyson

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Response (11.1.1.1.)... by jistac - 2008-04-02 06:41:31

Alyson you asked what is legally different about email versus paper. Well first when it comes to the school districts the ban on emails ends up being about a ban on writing down details. The email was being used by teachers instead of playing phone tag with busy parents to communicate with them and so the email was a much much better record than a phone conversation. I personally am guilty of tricking a teacher to say things in email so that I had a legal document of what they believed and what they were doing to our son. And the documentation I put together was what made our case to get our son out of the school system successful. Plus paper has the advantage that it can be SHREDDED or manipulated. The team leader for my son's case actually included a document that I had never seen dated so that it looked like she had sent it after we had met. I also saw that there was a date change on another form she had submitted. These were documents she had sent to the state when the state hearing officer was investigating our complaints. Because these were documents that I did not have copies of (my mistake...never again) I could not refute what she had done. But I had an outside professional confirm my suspicions that she was manipulating the case file to cover up her mistakes. With email she could not get away with this.

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Response (12.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-02 06:53:56

Living in New York you would think we would have the most up to date communication available with doctors. There have been many times (usually when I can't sleep at night) that I would love to shoot off a question to a Doctor but none of ours use email. I can't imagine any of our Drs. using emails for liability reasons. Now that I think about it I get most of my questions answered by googling on the internet!

Tonight is my appointment and I am a little intimitaded by questioning his practice but only because I don't want it to intervere with my son's relationship. I just have to wait and see how it goes.

Thanks for all the input.

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Response (12.1.)... by jistac - 2008-04-02 12:05:27

bigbird:

Do you live in the city? My daughter got the worst care ever in NYC last year and she was being treated by a doctor who had been the chief resident at Cornell in child psychiatry. I then have heard several times from others that NYC is pretty bad when it comes to psychiatric care, which surprised me given that every other person in NYC is in treatment.

That being said I have heard that one of the best child psychiatrists in the city is Stuart Adelson. But I also have heard that he is not taking new patients. My best friend got a referral from his office for somebody who they ended up using for their little girl (not BP...just ADD) and they are extremely happy. I have to say I am very close to the mom and care a lot about the little girl and I too have been pleased with the care she has gotten from this pdoc. If you want I can get the name for you.

BTW, the best thing I ever did was question our first psychiatrist. It was what got us to our current doctor. Granted another pdoc might of gotten defensive but if that had happened then it would of been even clearer in my mind that we needed to switch doctors.

Jistac

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Response (13.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-02 21:03:10

I expressed all my concerns to pdoc tonight. He wasn't defensive but he definitely didn't feel that he should have reacted differently. I explained what I need to feel comfortable with keeping him as my son's dr. and he explained to me the protocol in dealing with a crisis. At least he knows how I feel and in the future I will be much more forward in asking for what I want. We are on Long Island as is he. I did take my son into Manhatten to see Dr. Faedda, author of "Parenting a Bipolar Child..." and he saw him a couple of times and felt that his medication and treatment was in line.

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Response (13.1.)... by mom2one - 2008-04-02 21:17:42

Dr. Faedda is regarding as one of the top pdocs not only in the city but nation wide. An excellent choice to seek a 2nd opinion from.

I'm glad you expressed your feelings and that he explained his crisis protocol.

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Response (13.2.)... by boomom - 2008-04-03 17:24:31

Good for you! I'm happy you were able to voice your thoughts and feelings on the matter regardless of his response. You took care of yourself and your son. That's commendable.

Peace,

Alyson

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Response (14.)... by stargazer - 2008-04-02 21:59:42

My son sees his PSYCHOLOGIST for an hour every other week. He sees his PSYCHIATRIST for 15 minutes once a month. The tdoc does the therapy. The pdoc gives the meds. They are in contact with each other. I'm comfortable with this.

The first pdoc we went to, wanted my son to stop seeing his tdoc of 2 years so that she could see him for both therapy and meds. However, i didn't want this. My son loves his psychologist. Besides...this pdoc didn't even have any toys in her office. And she's suppose to be a child psychiatrist??? I was floored. I said no, and found a different pdoc. I think 15 minutes a month with a pdoc is adequate unless the child is unstable. Why would the pdoc have to see the child for an hour if the tdoc is doing that? Doesn't make sense to me. Just costs us more money.

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Response (14.1.)... by jistac - 2008-04-03 06:25:35

Stargazer,

Some kids do need more therapy. Have you seen the MAC/IBM ads. There is a great one where Mac and IBM are in therapy and they hit an impasse and the therapist says, "Maybe we should meet twice a week." It is very very funny.

My son is one of those high-need therapy kids. He attends a therapeutic school. Gets counseling at the school (one on one and group). He sees a cognitive psychologist and he sees his psychiatrist each for an hour. He needs it. And some kids are so complex they need this. I am relieved that our pdoc does therapy because he is the only person our son will let do therapy with him. We tried outside therapists. We saw tons and our son rejected them all. He is extremely bright and he was only going to open up to somebody who he trusted intellectually. That person happened to be our pdoc.

My daughter was seeing an outside therapist each week and when she was getting stable she also saw our pdoc for an hour each week. Why? Well she needed it. But she is also very smart and manipulative enough that it really helped to have two people watching her and observing her. Also the therapist was not a specialist in bipolar disorder and the pdoc was able to pick up on certain things and then contact her about what issues were important for her to be working on. I don't think the pdoc or the tdoc would of picked up on our daughter's hypomania this fall without this approach.

But I can also see where there are some kids where this would be overkill and totally unnecessary. As our pdoc said to us, there are indeed some kids who just get stable and then move on and don't really have any issues after that. Unfortunately that is not MY kids. And I do think that with difficult to treat kids like mine the 15 minute approach would fail. We never would of gotten either one stable like they are now without the intensive treatment and work.

I must say I am jealous of those of you whose kids are not so "in-need".

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Response (15.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-03 07:16:29

Is your son a teenager? There is no way my son would agree to go to the therapist more than his once a week appointment. He too goes to a therapeutic school and has a therapist there. Funny enough sometimes the two therapists disagree with treatment so it can be a little confusing for me. For instance, the school is very lenient when he decides not to go. His tdoc and I believe he should have consequences, the school doesn't necessarily agree. When he is stable (which I think I have a good sense of his stability) I feel he should be accountable for missing the bus or not going to school.

This is where I'm concerned that the therapeutic school is not enough of a challenge for him. However, when he is not stable or is having a breakthrough I am grateful that the school handles him very well and helps him through these times. Sometimes when he is doing really well it is hard for me to tease out the teenage moments and the illness.

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Response (15.1.)... by jistac - 2008-04-03 15:34:42

bigbird,

Our son is 17. A year or two ago he could barely handle one 15 minute session with the pdoc let alone all the therapy he is getting now. What changed? Well he hit some serious road-blocks in his life. He matured and realized that if he didn't address his issues he wasn't going anywhere due to these road blocks. In other words he fell to the bottom of the pit and woke up and saw that there was no option but to climb out of it himself. No more blaming others. No more making excuses due to his illness. No more ignoring his problems and hoping they would go away.

He himself asked to see the cognitive psychologist. Although he didn't say he wanted to see a cognitive psychologist specifically. He asked for tutorial help with learning and said he needed some support and help so he could learn the advanced biology he wanted to learn. We knew that what he really needed was not a biology tutor (which is what he was asking for) but somebody that could help him figure out how to learn the material he had access to. He sees this guy during school hours so I suppose it doesn't really count. Also they are not necessarily doing "talk therapy" they are doing "cognitive stuff" which for our son with his short term memory and processing issues is essential. Sometimes he complains about all the therapy these days but he is very goal driven and determined to move on with his life so he is a real participant and is working hard to get the work done that needs to get done.

Our daughter was the same way. She was and is very motivated to get better and to deal with her illness and her issues because she wants to move on with her life.

I think that is the big difference between older teens and younger teens.

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DISCUSSION: so upset and confused 2008-03-31 20:10:30 2008-03-30 21:20:52

My 14 y/o son is not doing well. I told you about the Invga and now he's back on abilify, 2.5 a.m. and p.m.; Lithium 450 a.m. and p.m. and now tenex 1/2 tab three times a day. He's still so angry, mad and DEFIANT. I do not understand. I know that he's also hitting puberty now but I've never seen a teenager like this. I'm one of 8 kids and none of us on our worst day was like this.....I don't know if the meds are the problem or if the child is just an extreme case and a difficult, difficult problem. My husband was reduced to tears this weekend and my daughter is always locking herself in her room. LIfe in this house is SO EXTREMELY stressful. I feel, constantly, like I can't breathe....We've done psychiatry, psychology, neurologist, neurofeedback, medications, behavior therapy, occupational and physical and speech therapy and we have him in a special school fo rkids with learking disabilities. We've spent countless dollars on things like All Kinds of Minds, TEACCH for autism kids, had him evaluated at Chapel Hill and countless other things. and we still have all this defiance, disobedience, etc. If I did not have my daughter who gets boundries, knows the rules, and is a very descent, loving child, I would be crazy. She has tourettees but you never hear a word of complaint out of her and she deals with all life's issues. My son, ten minutes in his presence and my stomache hurts, my heart has pain in it and my head and lips get numb. I swear I'm going to have a heart attack or stroke soon. It's been weighing very heavily on my heart lately that he may need so much more than I can give him but HE'S MY SON!!!! I do not want him to be sent away and yet none of us can breathe. I can't tell you the last time my husband and I actually held hands, had a conversation (other than about my son), or just relaxed and watched a movie. My son controls everything about what happens in this house.....not because we LET HIM but because it's the way it is. He's resistant to rules, boundries, positive/negative reinforcements, etc. I'm really frightened and I'm not feeling well. Neither is my husband or my sweet daughter. We are all on nexium and such because the stress is SO INCREDIBLY HIGH. I fanticize about coming home, having a salad, glass of wine, talking about our days.....watching a movie or even taking a walk around the block. It just doesn't happen here. I pull up to my house and don't even want to go in. I have tried everthing that I know of (those of you who know me all these years, know that!).....what is the next step, that I can afford? I just want to have peace and relax. I will turn 50 this year but I feel like I'm 90 most days. We don't plan vacations or do "family things" because its all so stressful. I just needed to vent and I'm thankful for all of you. My sibilings dong' even talke to me anymore because they don't "get it"...Ignorance is bliss I guess and my best friend is "done with all my drama". My phone doesn't ring and I don't even get birthday cards, etc. I'm tired, isolated and so very upset about all of this. I've done everything and still no success. Does anyone have any other things I could try? I love my son beyond belief but I can't live with him like this. It literally makes my stomach/heart hurt.

Just very sad tonight.....

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by gorman@cybermesa.com - 2008-03-31 20:10:30

Oh dear,

I'm so sorry for you. You sound like you are just worn out in every way. I know it's hard to send them away for help, but like you said, maybe he needs more than you can give him right now. It's no failure to let a professional who doesn't have the emotional attachment step in and work with him. It's a punch in the stomach to imagine sending him out of the home for help, but believe me, sometimes that is what needs to happen. I feel guilty as heck to admit it, but it is a much needed "vacation" when your son is admitted for help out of the home. I will admit it though--we all get to recharge our batteries. The whole family needs to be considered, not just the needs of the one. Please give yourself permission to get away for a weekend, at the very least.

(by the way, I find it's hard to not feel a little negative about people with "normal" kids and "normal" lives and "normal" problems. When my friends whine about their kid being sick or getting an F, I think, "you have NO IDEA..." But, then I read some of the things you all are going through on this message board and know that contrary to popular belief, things really always CAN get worse. ;) )

Erika, New Mexico

Son, Dane, 11, BP, 750mg Lithium, 20 mg Abilify

Daughter, Kelsey, 16, no problems

Son, Ethan 18, No problems

StepSon Bill, 14, Hearing impaired

Husband, Bill, Saint

Tons of animals

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DISCUSSION: so upset and confused 2008-04-06 23:45:50 2008-03-30 21:20:54

Just very sad tonight.....

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by bigbird - 2008-03-30 22:03:13

I can tell you that when my family life was like that and my son was disrupting every day of our lives for 5 years, I decided to save the rest of us and sent him to a residential. We were not helping him and we were falling apart. I never regretted it, even when he begged to come home. I knew in my heart someone had to help him cope with this illness if he had any chance of surviving this world on his own. It sounds to me that you have tried everything else, it may be time to just start investigating options. There are some good programs out there that give our kids the structure and the behavioral therapy that they need.

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Response (2.)... by smallmom - 2008-03-30 22:39:54

Sue,

I just want you to know that I'm very sorry for what your whole family is going through. I have a 14-year-old son, too, who was a mess around Thanksgiving -- angry, depressed and completely shut down. We ended up placing him in a day treatment program at a local psych hospital for 6 weeks. We were so fortunate to have as his attending pdoc one of the best psychopharmacologists in our area. My son's meds got straightened out for the first time ever, and he is doing so much better now.

How often are you in contact with your son's pdoc? Do you feel it's time to get a second opinion? Do you know of a really good psychopharmacologist in your area who would see your son for a consult? Is a day treatment program an option for you?

While I know every child is different, what finally saved my son was putting him on two mood stabilizers (Lamictal, Zonegran) and one AP (Seroquel). We were fiddling around with all sorts of other combos for two years (one MS plus stimualants, ADs, benzos), but in the end one of the treatment algorithms frequently prescribed for treating BP finally paid off.

I hope you are able to find a magic combo for your son soon. Hugs.

Julia in MD, mom to:

Jacob 14.5, BP, migraines (Lamictal, Zonegran, Seroquel, Propranolol)

Annie 13, mood disorder-NOS (Lamictal, Lexapro)

Maya 9.5, anxiety/eating disorder (Zyprexa, Remeron)

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Response (3.)... by phyllisgerstman@yahoo.com - 2008-03-30 23:21:06

Boy. I can really relate. My daughter turned fifteen yesterday and the past 6 weeks have been pure hell. My husband and I talk about her constantly and are beginning to think of residential treatment. We are exhausted, don't sleep or eat well and I too have of sense of dread walking into the house. Some days is almost more than I can bare.

We are pursuing a second opinion, and meeting with the pdoc to maybe adjust meds. She takes abilify 30mg and lamictal 150mg and is jus tmiserable. We have been at this now for years 15 months with meds. pdoc 2 time weekly psychologist visit and are getting nowhere. I am so sorry your family is going through this.

Phyllis

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Response (4.)... by mom2one - 2008-03-31 01:31:13

I'm so sorry you and your family are suffering so much. I know you've been through the ringer and have gone over and beyond for several yrs. now.

I couldn't agree more that an appt. with a good psycho pharmacologist is a great idea. Has your pdoc consulted with other pdocs and have you sought a 2nd, 3rd opinion? Having an extra set of eyes to make sure nothing is being missed is valuable. For what it's worth, Tenex was the first med my ds was rx'd, and within a couple of days it made him so much worse. We later tried it with a ms and ap on board, yielding the same results as the first time. You may want to re-think its use and make sure that it is helping instead of contributing to his symptoms. Is his Lithium at a therapeutic level and are his Thyroid levels being checked at the same time as his Lithium levels? His dosage of Abilify is very low, it may need to be raised. For hard to treat kiddos, some need 2 first line mood stabilizers and 2 anti-psychotics on board. Have you looked into national studies at NIMH? If not, that would be an excellent option for you to look into. They pay for all travel expenses, food and lodging, etc.

For my ds, it took just over 9 years, 14 hospitalizations, and 38 med trials later for him to stabilize. We trialed all first line mood stabilizers, all atypical ap's including Clozaril for over a yr., several typical ap's, etc. He's currently on a med combo of Risperdal 5.5 mg., Seroquel 900 mg., Lamictal 400 mg., Lithium 1250 mg., and Synthroid 1.5. What we found is that we had to re-visit meds previously trialed, in many different combos, and dosages. This is the 3rd time we have trialed Lithium and Risperdal. We know know for example, that during the winter my ds responds best to almost a sub-therapeutic level of Lithium, where as during spring - fall he requires a 1.3 level. Make sure that you are giving meds a long enough trial, at therapeutic levels (low and high end), and maxing out the dosages if needed. We too just had a failed trial of Invega.

The only way to really tell whats happening is to chart. I bet you have probably worn your fingers to the bone just with charting over the years, but if you haven't been charting lately, then try to start again. Subtle changes are hard to see in the midst of the daily struggles, so charting is the only way I know to become more objective. Charting helped us find the subtle changes that made all the difference.

One thing we did was to stop looking for large improvement and look for small areas that could improve function/mood. For example, exercise, diet, regular sleep habits, therapy, etc. While it is true that none of those areas are going to "fix" the mood problems, they can contribute to being able to handle it better. If you can find 5 areas that make a 5% improvement then you are looking at 25% improvement and that's HUGE for a kid who isn't responding otherwise. It takes time for all the little things to accumulate.

Being a hostage to bipolar is no fun at all. You and your family, including your ds, would benefit from some professional respite with a PCA (personal care assistant). Have you checked into what programs your ds would qualify for? My ds is covered under our state medical waiver program, Katie Beckett. This program through Medicaid pays for respite. Do you have a similar program? Have you looked into sports programs at the Y for special needs kiddos and/or special olympics? Sleep away camp? Here in WI the WI Lions Camp offers a fabulous free week of camping several times a yr. to kiddos with different disabilities. Have you checked at your local college to see if there are any education students or psych students looking for experience with special needs kiddos? Some how, some way, find at the very least 20-30 minutes a day of alone time to do what you'd like to do.

You and your family will be in my thoughts and prayers. I wish you all peace.

Big hugs!

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Response (5.)... by rnmomo2@yahoo.com - 2008-03-31 11:16:22

Have you all been to family therapy? There comes a time when the caregivers need help for the sake of the child as well as themselves and the family. Can you and your husband give each other a break (a few hours in the afternoon on Sat or Sun)? I have found it helpful to go to a therapist who treats my son and the rest of us if needed. She helps us to learn how to deal with Matt. The best thing is that she knows him and has seen him at his worst and so there is no explanation needed. I also would get yet another opinion. As time passes and behaviors change or evolve, sometimes the picture changes too and sometimes doctors are reluctant to change their first impression or to fuilly appreciate the change in behavior over time.

Bonnie

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Response (6.)... by kotocat - 2008-03-31 11:35:13

We too live with a irritable 14 year old teen. Spring time brings challenges for her. I agree with the seasonal component and you should keep track of the changes. Maybe a mood chart would help as mentioned earlier.

We too dread walking into the house. You never know what mood you will have to address. I understand the "walking on eggshells". I get how frustrating it is when you've tried several avenues and nothing seems to work. I admire your determination to help your child.

When my daughter needs a med adjustment her DR changes the antipsychotic dosage. She remains on two mood stabilizers and this seems to work for her.

I hope things get better for you soon.

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Response (7.)... by nancyo - 2008-03-31 12:06:18

You have my sympathies. My son (16 yr) was acting very much the same as you describe. We tried everything we could think of too. He is now in a residential program. I think he is improving, but it is taking time. I hope you find a solution soon.

Nancy

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Response (7.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-03-31 12:38:14

Our family too was falling apart. In order to save us ALL we went the RTC route. Our girl got stable, we got recovered, and she is now home with things going SO MUCH BETTER than before!! Of course, we still have our days and we are still working on her physical dx, but we, AS A FAMILY, are intact and working and laughting as a team again! Just think on it.

((((((((((((HUGS!!!!)))))))))

Cheri

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Response (7.1.1.)... by pumpkin - 2008-03-31 14:42:11

Loving your son may mean you have to send him to RTC. Hopefully reading other stories will encourage you and help you realize that it doesn't mean you don't love him if you do this. It sounds like you have tried everything but that. Sounds like it may be time to check into it. I am so sorry for your pain. I have felt the same way you do before and it is awful, BUT, it will get better. Hang in there and check out your options for treatment centers. I used to think I could never do that, but now I think differently. :ooh:

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Response (8.)... by joanfisher - 2008-04-06 23:45:50

Dear Sue-NC :

I remember that time in my life so well, when crisis after crisis was wearing me down and no one seemed to understand how little control I had over the situation and how hard I was trying to get control. We stopped doing all the normal fun things for a few years because I was constantly anticipating the next crisis.

I decided to gain control by letting go of control. This is not good advice for some families -- you have to feel out where you are at. But in my case, I put up with the madness for several years and then decided that my dds would have to deal with the consequences of their behavior themselves. It was very hard to do, and I needed a therapist and Lexapro for myself to make it happen.

My daughters still get into trouble, but by turning things over to them (I am NOT responsible for their behavior), I put them in the situation where they had to deal with the consequences of their own behavior. Good luck with this.

Joan

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DISCUSSION: Restraining 7 Year Old BP Daughter 2008-04-04 23:23:03 2008-03-30 22:29:35

My wife an I are having a discussion about restraining our BP daughter. I seem to get mad and restrain her too hard (squeezing wrist, holding down her legs with my knees). I don't know why I get angry sometimes but I do. Other times I just restrain her, do not make eye contact and do not respond to her comments. My wife handles the situation in the latter fashion all the time. What is wrong with me? Don't get me wrong, I LOVE and cherish my daughter. I too am BP and can relate to her on so many levels. I would never intentionally hurt her and never have hurt her. But I do need some help here.

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by phyllisgerstman@yahoo.com - 2008-03-30 23:29:05

I would strongly advise not physically restraining your daughter. I had a very scary incident recently with my then 14 year old daughter. She had a conflict with her dad, he asked her to get off the computer. She wne to grab the mouse and my husband grabbed her hand to stop her. The next day she went to school and told the school counselor her version of events which were that her dad grabbed her hand, twisted it hard behind her back for no reason. I got called from school with essentailly a report that she was abused and while they were not going to call CPS, we felt very threatened as my daughter claimed she wa too scared of dad to come home.

We called an attorney that evening to make sure what our rights were and in the end she came home it all worked out but I would not leave her in the same room alone with her dad for fear of what she would dream up. Things have mellowed since but lots of hurt for no reason. Please be careful.

Phyllis

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Response (2.)... by stephanini@comcast.net - 2008-03-30 23:54:16

I've been in your situation with restraints practically an everyday occurance. My husband responded often just like you described and he would never intentionally hurt our son either. It usually made things worse and go on longer. I guess he thought he could get him to snap out of it somehow. We have called for help on a few occassions. One episode was going on for 2 hrs. raging. My husband sitting on my son. Finally we decided to call 911. He was then hospitalized. I think it was the best thing we could do at the time, it was so hard making that first call, now I would never let it go 2 hrs. he's too big at 113 pounds. Have you called her psych? Maybe a med review is in order? Maybe you can plan ahead how you'll respond when these episodes occur and think about what has worked best in the past. Maybe write it down somewhere. It's probably best to not handle her at all if you're that angry. Best wishes and it will get better.

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Response (2.1.)... by - 2008-03-31 00:54:56

I have found that big thing is to try and use techniques that de-escalate emotions and so try and avoid these situations in the first place. Another thought is to have a safe place and safe rage technique outlets for your daughter, what ever works for her and your family.

Guessing that I am undiagnosed on spectrum, I remember well having atypical childhood rages that were certainly beyond my control once triggered. My mom was quite wise, left the room, and let me cry/scream, pummel bed etc. get it out on my own, and didn't try to stop the storm once it was unleashed. It was something that I grew out of thank heavens.

The Explosive Child by Ross Greene http://www.explosivechild.com/is a great book that gives tips on how to side step these situations so need for restraint is lessened.

I think it's great that you recognize the problem and are looking for solutions. Kudos!

Best,

Rebecca

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Response (2.1.1.)... by heavenly - 2008-04-04 20:40:53

Rebecca - that is all fine and good if the child is just raging in their room by themselves but when your child is beating you with a hockey stick or attacking their sister (both things my 7 year old has done) then you don't have a choice but to restrain them. My son can be set off by looking at him the wrong way so I can't really avoid his triggers.

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Response (3.)... by mom2one - 2008-03-31 01:47:26

Hi,

I suggest looking into and practicing Low Expressed Emotion

You and your wife should also look into learning how to do a correct therapeutic hold/restrain. If your dd is requiring frequent restraining, you should look into her meds, maybe they need a dosage adjustment, maybe something on board is making symptoms worse, maybe something needs to be added and report raging behavior to your pdoc. Is your dd taking an anti-psychotic? Anti-psychotics are great at treating rage and aggression. Chart and see if you can find a pattern to what may be triggering episodes that require restraining.

The Explosive Child is an excellent book recommendation.

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Response (3.1.)... by mom2nicolas - 2008-03-31 09:07:17

Hi there! I work in the residential child care field and have been a certified therapuetic crisis intervention instructor for five years. I teach a program from Cornell university (TCI). When I train a group of child care workers, the first part of the training teachers the workers to ask themselves "What am I feeling now?, What does the child want or need? and How do I best respond." If you can stop yourself for a split second and ask yourself "What am I feeling now?" and honestly respond, it may help you realize your anger before you take it out in the restraint on your daughter (not intentionally of course, but that is what is happening.) If you respond to that question with "I'm so mad!" or something similar, you are best to ask your wife to intervene if possible or to take a few minutes to take care of yourself before intervening with your daughter. I have seen very serious injuries occur when staff aren't in control of their own emotions/actions prior to initiating the restraint. These are not intentional acts to harm the child, but we are very human and emotions run high during crisis situations.

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Response (4.)... by kalee - 2008-04-04 23:23:03

Hey Scott,

You seem fairly new here so I thought I would tell you about the Support Groups here. In addition to this great forum, a support group would include other parents with kiddos close to the same age as your child. At times, the same crisis' hits kids at the same age. It has really helped me. If you are interested, just click on Support Groups at the left and join. Just a thought for more help!

Kathy

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DISCUSSION: Teen Boy w/Bipolar II--Angry & Depressed 2008-03-30 07:13:40 2008-03-28 00:11:32

My ds 16 has bpII on 200mg Lamictal and is currently angry/depressed. I wish someone would tell me what to do. Has anyone experienced a teen who gives you the silent treatment and then when they do talk say that you "disgust" them? He is currently on "home hospital" while he goes through the IEP evaluation and frequently misses his appointments with his teacher who is supposed to come to the house, because he is either too depressed, or like now, angry at the world because "everything about his life sucks." He is behind in credits since bp kicked in last spring. He stays in his room watching hours of Dragon Ball Z on YouTube. If I took away the computer (which he paid for), he would just curl up in a ball on the bed for days. Do I let him ride it out or force him to do things. Since he is disgusted with both his parents right now, I can't get him to do much of anything. He has absolutely no friends, because he cut off communication with them long ago. He was doing so good, then turned on a dime. Any advice would be appreciated. I am so tired of this roller coaster ride. :frown:

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by kalee - 2008-03-28 00:45:21

Teen years are hard anyway but they shouldn't be that tough! He shouldn't want to lay around all day without friends. IMO, Lamictal alone is not working. Have you talked to his pdoc?

You might try looking in the Reference Room (I think) to the left to see what treatment options there are.

Mine is 3 and has been on that roller coaster since he was 8 months so I sympathize with you. Hopefully, some others will pipe in and give you better info!!

Peace to you,

Kathy

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Response (2.)... by smallmom - 2008-03-28 08:58:06

Oh, I'm so sorry for all you're going through. I agree that it sounds as if Lamictal on its own is not doing enough.

My son was very much like yours -- depressed, angry and emotionally shut down. He was on 200 mg Lamictal, and his pdoc raised him to 400 mg. Because he was still very depressed and shut down, we ended up placing him in a day treatment program at a local psych hospital. The attending pdoc added in Zonegran and then Seroquel. His depression lifted for the first time in years.

Have you been in touch with your son's pdoc? What does he/she suggest? If you're not getting anywhere with the current pdoc, you may need to seek a second opinion or consider more intensive treatment options like a day treatment program.

Good luck.

Julia in MD, mom to:

Jacob 14.5, BP, migraines (Lamictal, Zonegran, Seroquel, Propranolol)

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Response (2.1.)... by canne - 2008-03-29 08:09:18

BP aside, I have heard from many parents that basically can no longer talk to their teen once they turn 16/17. This phase can last into the early twenties. They do come back and the relationship is usually fine. This is not uncommon for teenagers at all. One family I know, the father is a doctor, all american apple pie sort of family. Well, the mother said the daughter stopped talking to them completely and was impossible to live with. She is now a wonderful daughter and they get along fine. Good luck

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Response (3.)... by kotocat - 2008-03-28 11:23:11

Hold on tight and remember rollercoaster rides always come to a end!

The attitude sounds all to familar. My daughter, almost 15, is currently on two mood stabilizers. She takes Lamictal,Trilepital, and Abilify. Since you meationed a seasonal component to your son's illness maybe the DR can suggest something additional.

I really don't know what home hospital means but it sounds like you have alot on yor plate. Where are the teachers? Sounds like your in three roles right now, mother,nurse, and teacher. I feel your frustration.

I have been told that home is a safe haven for children . This explains why they let loose and exhibit their worse behavior at home. If it is any thing like my house it borderlines verbal abuse and plain disrespect. What I have a hard time with is differentiating between normal teenage behavior and instability. Maybe your DR can help you with that.

It's so hard to watch your child isolate their self and havn't any friends. Just know you are not alone.

Hang in there

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Response (4.)... by fizbin - 2008-03-28 11:55:35

I'd agree with the other posters and speak with his pdoc. Clearly something is not working and he might need more Lamictal or another mood stabilizer in addition to it. I'd suggest you download the treatment guidelines available here http://www.thebalancedmind.org/site/DocServer/treatment_guidelines.pdf?d...

Hang in there come here to vent when you need to you are not alone.

Eileen

The Balanced Mind Foundation Parent to Parent Volunteer

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Response (5.)... by cettles1@q.com - 2008-03-28 17:47:16

I agree with everybody.Also i have found the book The life of a bipolor child is great.I can't put it down.

Grandmother raising grandchildren with bp

And mother with bp daugher :smile:

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Response (6.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-03-28 20:58:31

Ditto to adding another med. My Bp girl, almost 15, didn't COMPLETELY stabilize until recently with the addition of a second stabilizer. He may also need an antipsychotic for the anger. My son, almost 12, is only on an ap for anger issues.

"The Bipolar Teen" by David Miklowitz, PhD is SUPER SUPERB!!! This doc was also a guest speaker on this website a few weeks back. His books are PHENOMENAL!!! And deal with the teen version of BP. It is pretty cheap on Amazon.

You said he enjoys his computer a lot and is having social issues- I was recently directed to a support group website for teens with mental health issues. It is teens-moods.net. They have forums to vent on anger, hallucinations, cutting, etc. Sometimes what gets them down is thinking they are the ONLY ones going thru this crap-this website confirms to them they aren't and sometimes that can really turn things around. Then they also have fun forums and open topics for just cuttin' up and also a place to vent about parents! :) My girl has ONLY web friends and just started on this site and LOVES it!! She can "go off" for awhile and get it out, then turn around and talk about soap operas and boys!! :) All at one place! It has been very beneficial to her.

Sorry to say, but the roller coaster will go on for some time to come. :frown: Just remember NOT to take the things he says personally- he has A LOT of pain inside that has to come out somewhere and the parents are the safest place to fire it. Like the old saying "We always hurt the ones we love the most". Give him hugs whenever you can muster and he will allow it, TRY to understand what he is feeling inside to the best of your ability, and continue to encourage him to keep moving forward. Learn all you can and pass it on to him as he is able to listen.

For you-patience, "me time", love, determination, and more patience. When that doesn't work, go ahead and come here and vent your head off!!

:goofy: That works for me!! :)

Love & Peace,

Cheri

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Response (7.)... by sidneybristow - 2008-03-29 02:31:40

Thanks for all the replies. The pdoc said to add 4mg of Abilify, which made him throw up last night at 2am. He came out of his room to see his teacher today when she came to the house, so that was positive. After that it was back in his room. He did start to talk to me a 1/2 hour ago, but I guess I said something wrong during the conversation, so he resumed giving me the silent treatment. It's so hard to figure out how much of this is bipolar and how much is just being a teen. Is this normal? He gets upset at the littlest things, which send him spiraling into a deep dark depression. I feel like I'm walking on eggshells. Do I back off or do I try to comfort? :frown:

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Response (7.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-03-29 10:15:50

My girl tried Abilify too and it also made her sick. Ask your pdoc about Risperadol instead. Also, that book I mentioned will help you decipher if it is teen or BP. Push slightly and comfort whenever he gives you the chance. Is there ANYTHING from your past that you could use to commiserate with him? Like 'you know, I think I can relate to how you are feeling ..once this happened to me and I just shut myself in my room too" type of conversation starter?

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Response (8.)... by jistac - 2008-03-29 07:43:28

A year ago I could of written your post. My son had complicated LD issues and had an episode at school that made him not want to return. He was angry depressed and in his room most of the day. We were fortunate that our son is also a musician so he spent a large part of the day playing his instrument. But when he would get really bad he wouldn't even do that and I think he would just sit in his room and surf the net and watch YouTube. Teens are tough. They are growing and changing and they are moody anyways.

A lot of things happened to get us to a better place. For one our son appears to have stopped growing at age 17. For another we got him placed in a small private therapeutic school that understands BP and where he feels safe and comfortable even when he is not well. And lastly what really helped was our son realizing that he himself had to do something with his life or else he wasn't going anywhere. My DH and I both work out of the house and being with us 24-7 started to slowly drive my poor son crazy. We took him to see a DMH young adult vocational program and that was a wake up call for him and after that he decided that he really wanted to go to college and was going to have to pull his life together and start being proactive himself about his BP treatment. He started communicating more with his pdoc and we were able to make great strides with his stability.

Good Luck and Hang in There. I know it is hard as i have been there done that.

Jistac

CAM Board Moderator

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Response (8.1.)... by kotocat - 2008-03-29 13:28:59

Thanks for th uplifting message!

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Response (8.1.1.)... by sidneybristow - 2008-03-29 14:15:57

Fortunately, my ds is a musician too and will at least play his guitar or piano while shut away in his room. He used to play hours of Halo on Xbox, which was really detrimental, and has since given that up, thank God. It was really hard for him to overcome his video game addiction. Now, when he gets depressed he watches hours of anime on YouTube.

We are currently going through an IEP evaluation and don't know what the school district will come up with. Sometimes I feel he needs to be in a therapeutic school, but right now he doesn't want to be around any other teenagers, because he feels they are judgmental and will make fun on him. He also doesn't want to be seen by other teens because of his acne.

I'm not sure if the Lamictal has contributed to the acne or if it's just a teen thing. It seems like the acne increased with the use of Lamictal. He sees a dermatologist and has recently started complying with the topicals (differen) and also takes doxycycline, which is starting to help.

Being a teen with BP and acne really sucks!

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Response (8.2.)... by sidneybristow - 2008-03-29 14:39:11

What is a DMH young adult vocational program?

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Response (8.2.1.)... by jistac - 2008-03-30 07:13:40

DMH stands for Department of Mental Health. I live in MA and was thrilled to discover DMH this fall. Everyone who I contacted at DMH was wonderful and supportive. In the end we didn't end up making use of their services but it was helpful at that time to know they were there. DMH runs a lot of mental health programs for teens in our area. One of those is called the Young Adult Vocational program which is a therapeutic program that prepares older teens and young adults for going out into the work force.

BTW, it sounds like your son was bullied. Is that correct? My own son dealt with some emotional bullying (ie: not physical) and that contributed to his wanting to stay in his room and not be around other kids. Intensive therapy really helped him come to grips with what happened to him.

Jistac

CAM Board Moderator

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DISCUSSION: Home From Meridell 2008-04-17 13:57:42 2008-04-15 10:19:58

Hi everybody,

I got home Saturday night after taking Dane home from Meridell. He is, unfortunately, exactly the same as he was when we sent him. I honestly can't tell any difference. He had a classic meltdown last night, and his logic and thinking are just as flawed as ever. I was SO hopeful that he would be at least SOMEWHAT better with the new meds, 5 weeks of therapy in a controlled environment, and more insight for us at least. He came home diagnosed bipolar, NLD, and Asperger's. He has the same obsessive thinking, paranoia, total lack of responsibility for his behavior, etc. He was doing SO well at Meridell though, just thriving in that environment. I've only had him home 3 days now, but see zippo improvement. I'm following the home contract carefully, and that isn't anything new because it is the same set of rules we always had. The schools had a meeting yesterday with Dane's report from Meridell and new diagnosis being the topic of conversation as they try to figure out how to accomodate him. They are meeting again today, and then maybe with us on Thursday for an IEP. To add to the stress, that means about 20 hours of time off with no pay. I can't help but be a little worried about the schools coming back saying home tutoring is all they can do to accomodate him. Another boy in his behavior improvement class was booted out of school and gets 4 hours of tutoring a week from the schools. How that is considered an equivalent education I'll never know, but I'm afraid that is the direction they might try to go with Dane. I'm borrowing trouble I suppose. All I can say is that I'm exhausted, mentally and emotionally, and just don't have a lot of fight left in me. Between insurance and the school system, I'm worn down. Oh, and then there's Dane. I'm finding it increasing hard to keep a positive outlook, and wonder if there is much hope for the future. I get so sad sometimes, I don't know how to keep going on. I'm hoping the new family therapist we're meeting on Friday will have room for one more nut--me! :wink:

Erika, New Mexico

Son, Dane, 12, BP,NLD,Aspergers: 900mg Lithium, 20 mg Abilify, 100 mg Lamictal,

100 mg amantadine

Daughter, Kelsey, 16, no problems

Son, Ethan 18, No problems

StepSon Bill, 14, Hearing impaired

Husband, Bill, Saint

Tons of animals

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-15 16:35:00

Things haven't turned out as you had thought they would!!!! (((((ERICA!!!!)))) I would have thought the same and am quite surprised Merridell didn't do more good! About your job- have you tried applying for SSI for Dane? Perhaps, if the school does give him the boot and you have to give up your job it would be something to look into?! Or go ahead and start checking into RTCs. I KNOW either of these options feels HORRIFYING, but now is the time to start thinking about a Plan B and C. You are in my thoughts and prayers!!! Hang in there!!!

Love & Peace,

Cheri

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Response (1.1.)... by gorman@cybermesa.com - 2008-04-15 20:43:20

Hi Cheri,

I think Meridell was on the right track, but didn't have him long enough to really get anything accomplished.

On the SSI, I don't know very much. I have been told that my ex, his father, makes too much money for him to qualify until he's 18. Somebody else told me that the state will pay a parent to stay home as a fulltime caregiver but it only pays something like $10 an hour. I would love to stay home with him but then I'm 41, and need to be putting into retirement, blah blah blah. Do you know about this stuff? Or anybody?

Meridell is classified as an RTC--however, our insurance, which paid for him to be in an RTC for 3 months before, says they won't pay for him to be in one anymore. New Mexico will let kids go on Medicaid (? I always mix up medicaid and medicare) after they have been out of the house for a month, so he COULD be in an RTC in NM, but there is only one that I know of and it's 10 hours away.

The other question I was going to put out there was, is there any program that anyone knows of that would pay for a caregiver over the summer for kids like ours? Dane's been tossed out of every camp program in town, and is just miserable in those situations, but I can't leave him home alone either. Any suggestions for how you all handle summers?

I'm very appreciative of any suggestions you have.

Erika, New Mexico

Son, Dane, 12, BP,NLD,Aspergers: 900mg Lithium, 20 mg Abilify, 100 mg Lamictal,

100 mg amantadine

Daughter, Kelsey, 16, no problems

Son, Ethan 18, No problems

StepSon Bill, 14, Hearing impaired

Husband, Bill, Saint

Tons of animals

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Response (2.)... by helpangel - 2008-04-15 21:15:23

My parents take their camper to the county park for about 6 weeks in the summer so I put my tent on their campsite free (LOL I don't even have to buy food.) The activities at the park give my kids a schedule and stuff to do but they don't have to participate in everything like a summer camp situation. Lots of security there and they know my kids (we've camp there since I was 9yo now 44) Usually I call front gate on cell for help and response time is about 45 seconds - they send like 6-8 staff.

I don't work outside the home because I never could find a nanny with a black belt & a psychology degree which is what I would need with 2 girls with bp. As far as SSI goes I would suggest you apply and if denied appeal. I got a lawyer free thru legal aid for my 11 yo to appeal. If the claim is your X makes too much money for him to qualify for SSI then child support needs to be raised enough to fund RTC or a proper care giver so you can work. I wouldn't know how raising child support works since I haven't seen any $ out of the X here since 2002.

Good Luck Nancy

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Response (2.1.)... by gorman@cybermesa.com - 2008-04-15 21:21:05

Living at a campground sounds heavenly. We always really enjoyed our family camping, and it's something I miss so much. That was another thing I lost in the divorce--camper, money to vacation, and time to vacation.

I stayed home with my kids until I got divorced 3 years ago--it's really the way to go, and it was necessary. However, I don't have that option anymore.

I definitely need to look into SSI more. If they went off my income, he'd qualify. Maybe we need to make it look like I have sole custody, which I did for a year while he was struggling with his own bipolar.

Thanks for your ideas--I want to go camp for the summer! Take me!

:smile:

Erika

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Response (2.1.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-15 22:57:09

What does the current custody paper say about custody? And was x dx and treated? If so, he could also qualify if he cannot hold a job. Otherwise, I agree with taking back before the court to raise the support or make HIM financially responsible for healthcare.

Cheri

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Response (2.1.1.1.)... by gorman@cybermesa.com - 2008-04-17 13:54:40

The X refuses to believe he's bp himself, but he and Dane are twins...I get pretty good child support and Dane is on his insurance, and he has to pay for 75% of the copays/out of pocket, but the insurance is so bad! Luckily he holds himself together enough in his work life that he has a high paying job, but I'm always wondering when, not IF, he's going to snap and either get himself fired or quit in a fit of rage. It will happen. I've had to work so closely with him because of the situation with Dane, moreso lately than usual, that I can see him cycling and building up to a rage. I call my husband and thank him for being "Mr. Even Keel." All those years living with a BP husband makes me constantly surpised at my husband's normal, easy-going personality.

I got a little off topic there--Sorry!

Erika, New Mexico

Son, Dane, 12, BP,NLD,Aspergers: 900mg Lithium, 20 mg Abilify, 100 mg Lamictal,

100 mg amantadine

Daughter, Kelsey, 16, no problems

Son, Ethan 18, No problems

StepSon Bill, 14, Hearing impaired

Husband, Bill, Saint

Tons of animals

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Response (2.2.)... by caroline.mooney@comcast.net - 2008-04-16 12:30:58

> I never could find a nanny with a black belt & a psychology degree which is what I would need

Boy, you got that right! I need to frame that!lol!

Caroline

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Response (3.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-04-15 23:26:40

I'm so sorry that Dane is not doing any better. If it's any consolation, Taryn's honeymoon at home is about over, too. I'm starting to think that kids like Taryn and Dane have to basically LIVE in an RTC to be stable. Maybe it's not possible to have them home and stable, as much as I wanted to believe it was! Unfortunately, where do you find a long-term placement for these kids and how do you pay for it?? Heck, if I know! Does anyone have any ideas???

Cyndi

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Response (3.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-16 09:12:12

Cyndi,

This is NOT something you want to hear, BUT.....I HAD to give up my job so we would be "poor enough" to get the kids Medicaid to pay for all this stuff. The copays for docs & meds was just way too much for us. We were going to food pantries for food and hygeine, lost our car insurance,almost lost our car, and had to go to churches for assistance in paying the other bills. It was a NIGHTMARE!!!! Now, when I first gave up my job nothing changed until Brianna's SSI went through. Then I got Colton's thru. They now will be on Medicaid as long as they receive SSI. I also figured if anything happened to Tim and I the kids would be provided for now and that too, has been a HUGE relief. We are now better off than we were before with both of us working and both the kids LOVE knowing I am here if they need, 24/7. I TOTALLY miss my life, but this is a sacrifice I had to make to get us thru the now. I will get my life back whenever the kids graduate out on their own.

Did you see my previous posts on the RTC board about New Life for girls? It is a long term RTC down south of Austin. New Life is ran by the Lutheran church, maybe they have assistance programs? If Brianna ever gets that sick again I will call them first and do whatever I can to get her back in there!! Remember, Brianna was gone for 1 1/2 years in several different places, but in New Life for 5 mths. She is home and now stable. Which she MAINLY has been, mostly not physically well which upset her BP.

Also, Bri has helped herself A LOT by going to teen-moods.net and NAMI and psychcentral to the support groups. I also found on the new The Balanced Mind Foundation board another teen group. Maybe start checking those out and see if you can get Taryn interested in doing that?

Just some things to think about!!!

Cheri

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Response (3.2.)... by gorman@cybermesa.com - 2008-04-17 13:57:42

Hi Cyndi,

Yep, I didn't know this message board was still here until you emailed me! :ooh: I misunderstood and had switched over to the other board and was wondering where everybody went! :sheepish:

I'm sorry to hear that Taryn is going back to her old ways--it's so hard to have our hopes raised and then dashed. On another thread you wrote about how the insurance company required a therapy appt before discharge (mine too) and that if they really cared about our kids, they would have let them stay in RTC--well, you hit the ball out of the park on that one. Amen, Sistah! :pbpt:

Erika, New Mexico

Son, Dane, 12, BP,NLD,Aspergers: 900mg Lithium, 20 mg Abilify, 100 mg Lamictal,

100 mg amantadine

Daughter, Kelsey, 16, no problems

Son, Ethan 18, No problems

StepSon Bill, 14, Hearing impaired

Husband, Bill, Saint

Tons of animals

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DISCUSSION: Michael update 2008-04-12 14:20:44 2008-04-12 12:53:29

Mike's been out of school for the last two weeks. After panic/ rage type of episodes and suspended for punching principal and threatening to burn down the school in a rage. He was suspended from his nonpublic day school twice in 2 weeks. I was able to get a meeting last week. There was also lack of honest communication from the teacher. He'll be going back to school next week. We decided not to do a new FBA at this point because He's probably going to have a honeymmon perioa and it's going to be the end of the year and it might not be accurate. The principal thought it would be good to increase the payoff for desired behavior such as taking space appropriately and asking for help. I am still unsure of the placement because of the rigidity of the principals and very consequence reward driven. The principals (there are two) come in when the teacher needs help and kind of take it from there, dorestraints, etc. However the classroom has only 4 kids right now and there behaviors are relatively mild compared to other classromms i've seen which makes for a calm environment as far as ED placements go, and the teacher has great classroom management skills and Michael likes her and has made friends in the class. I'm still uneasy about the principal saying the next time the police will be called and that Michael will be searched when he comes to school. I forgot to ask about that. I also want michael to be aware that threats are taken seriously. I'm just not sure how to feel about that. For right now I think it might be the best placement, The dr. did add Lithium which seems to be helping alot. The team thinkls it would teach Michael responsibility to let him ride the van to school. I took him off because a boy in another class was spitting, making sexualized comments, and Michael was so angry and came in looking for a knife one day when he got off. I talked to principal and nothing changed. He did fine on the van until the addition of other students. I just think its a recipe for disaster and having a calm ride to and from school would be the best for him. Why do they think its abnormal for a parent to transport? if it was a regular school they wouldn't think that. I have enjoyed him being home.

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-12 14:20:44

It's sounds like he is very unstable and maybe he could be tutored at home for a while. It sounds like he doesn't have enough support when he starts to get upset at school. Another suggestion would be having the school contact you as soon as your son appears upset. I also would be driving him to school if the conflicts on the bus is just one more stress factor for him.

I myself have learned that my son's (16) stability comes before school.

I also read your other thread on video games. That would be a good incentive for behavior.

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DISCUSSION: My wife is scared that I'll hurt daughter. 2008-04-12 14:39:20 2008-04-12 14:21:27

My 7 year old BP daughter requires restraining from time to time (less now than in the past). My wife is scared that when I restrain her I do it too hard and out of "punishment" not "safety". I too am BP and I think that my daughter and I may feed off each other. I do restrain her firmly but I do not hurt her. How can I convince my wife that I will not hurt my precious daughter?

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by andyl - 2008-04-12 14:33:25

My suggestion would be to learn the proper techniques for restraining. You could contact your local mental health assoc. or school to see if they offer Crisis Intervention training. I have not taken it myself, but I know that it is excellent. More police are also being trained using this. You may also want to talk to pdoc to see if meds need to be further tweaked and talk him/her about the need for restraining and some type of documentation that it is needed. Both you and your wife should be on the same page if possible. Good luck!

Andrea

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Response (2.)... by kalee - 2008-04-12 14:37:02

I restrain my 3 y/o and it is difficult not to 'hurt' him in the process. When 4 limbs and a butting head get involved, restraint can look like inflicting pain.

Has a professional taught either of you how to effectively restrain without causing harm to your child. If not, you may both want to be taught. Maybe that would appease your wife.

Good Luck!

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Response (3.)... by debgracy@yahoo.com - 2008-04-12 14:39:20

About 6 mos ago, my DS 11 was raging almost every day and we were constantly restraining him. On the advice of a police officer friend, we got a letter from his tdoc saying that he is bipolar and that when his behavior gets out of control due to his illness, his parents might be required to restrain him for the safety of others. We did end up showing this to the police when we had to call 911 and he was hospitalized. I felt a sense of comfort having the letter.

Also, my DS would get very mad at my DH whenever he restrained him, he felt he was to rough. At that time, my DS could only see that it was all his father's fault and he was doing nothing wrong. So when he was admitted, he told everyone that my DH was hurting him. So we had to explain what was going on. It did really hurt their relationship, all my DS could see was that DH was "too rough" with him. So I do think that it would be helpful to learn the proper techniques for restraint and have a letter from the pdoc or tdoc in case you were ever called into question.

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DISCUSSION: Art Therapy 2008-04-13 06:10:17 2008-04-13 01:49:58

Does anyone have any information on this-web sites or books that I may get. I know it is considered "mainstream" out east, but we have no such thing here.

Thanks!!!!

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by jistac - 2008-04-13 06:10:17

Check out this Link

http://www.arttherapy.org/staep.html

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DISCUSSION: can't wake him up! 2008-04-14 13:59:42 2008-04-13 18:46:44

Anyone have any advise on how to wake up 13 yo ds. He goes to bed early enough. Doesn't seem to be medication related. Have used police to wake him up once and hasn't had the effect we thought it would. I know difficulty waking up is part of the scenario but does anyone have any tricks to share. I'm tired of the complaints from school.

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by kotocat - 2008-04-14 11:39:29

I don't have alot of suggestions. What works for us is I always allow for the extra time it takes to wake her up. On most mornings it takes two to three attempts. I'm fortunate enough to be able to drive them to school. The bus arrives way to early. Also, the Dr reduced the dosage on Abilify and it helped her sleep better. It caused "restless legs" which kept her awake at night. I have read other suggestions in the past written within this forum board. Look around and you probally find them.

Good luck

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Response (2.)... by sayodonnell - 2008-04-14 12:33:20

Hi,

I am looking for information from anyone out there who is homeschooling their bipolar child or who has tried. My 16 year old daughter has not been able to get to school in a long time and will now need to repeat 10th grade unless I can homeschool her. She is in a traditional private school. I am trying to avoid a therapeutic school for many reasons and can see that there could be huge advantages to home schooling.

Any suggestions? advice? Or I would love to just hear other's experiences with home schooling.

Thanks

Stephanie

16 year old daughter bipolar, zyprexa, wellbutrin, lithium, neurontin

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Response (2.1.)... by supernova - 2008-04-14 12:53:44

Hi, I homeschool my 13 yo son with BP and Aspergers. We used a virtual program the first year (5th). Now, for middle school, I am piecing together my own curriculum. The flexibility is key for us. We work year-round, and ds tends to work smaller amounts on 6 days (Mon-Sat) rather than 4-5 longer days as many homeschoolers do.

A few quick suggestions:

Seek out a local homeschooling support group. Ours encompasses kids from pre-k - late teens. There are frequent park days, field trips and other activities. We have a handful of teens taking classes at our local community college.

Look into virtual schools. Your dd could work more independently with more personal accountability - leaving you largely out of the loop.

Another option is to hire a tutor so that your dd is accountable to someone other than you. This would allow you to focus on healthy family relationships rather than nagging about school work.

Look for online support groups for homeschoolers. There are many on Yahoo!, for example.

Post on the education board here at The Balanced Mind Foundation. Also, check out www.starfishadvocacy.org. There are several parents homeschooling BP children who post there.

Check with your state board of education to see what their homeschooling regulations are. There is quite a bit of variance from state to state.

Good luck with whatever you decide. Remember, you'll both need some adjustment time in the beginning.

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Response (2.2.)... by kalee - 2008-04-14 13:59:42

Hi - I think there is a Support Group here for homeschooling. They may have beneficial experiences too.

Good Luck,

Kathy

Co-Mod VY3 w/Amanda, Christina & Lisa

dandkcraig@hotmail.com , Arkansas

Cody 3, DX: Mood Disorder NOS, SID

Current Meds: Melatonin 6 mg. DHA Fish Oil 1000 mg.

Therapeutic Day Program, 180 min/wk OT

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Response (3.)... by carolinamom - 2008-04-14 12:46:00

I haven't done homeschooling but have done homebound teaching (not with child on this post that won't wake up but with another ds). Did homebound for a semester in 7th grade and one in 8th grade. The pdoc fills out a form provided by the school district that verifies that child cannot attend school for medical reasons-this includes mental health reasons. A meeting is held to determine hours of need and the school district provides a tutor for the number of hours per week determined. We had 8 hours/week and sometimes done at home, sometimes at the public library. Child does schoolwork on their own pace and teachers communicate with the tutor and provide classwork/tests. It was very low stress and successful for us but this child was self-motivated to get work done despite needing an occasional prod because of ADHD. With the classrooms being so disruptive these days, I think homebound was more fruitful than attending school!

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DISCUSSION: elizabeth@lindelfamily.org? 2008-04-15 06:54:12 2008-04-13 21:10:36

Hi Elizabeth,

I read on another thread that your dd, who has been newly dxed with BP, has been experiencing low-grade fevers. I strongly suspect there is something physical going on instead of or in addition to BP. The presence of a low-grade fever indicates the body is fighting something, and it is generally not a psychiatric symptom.

Has your daughter been suffering from other physical symptoms? Has she had a recent strep test? Has she had a blood test to rule out mono and Lyme Disease? I know someone from another message board I frequent whose daughter was presenting with anxiety and raging plus a low-grade fever, and it turned out it was Lyme Disease. She is now on a long course of antibiotics, and her psychiatric symptoms are improving.

If your pediatrician can't or won't run the full gamut of tests to rule out physical causes for the fever, you might want to seek out the help of an infectious disease specialist. It would be a shame to treat psychiatric symptoms with psychotropic meds when the cause for your dd's symptoms may be something else entirely.

Good luck. We're here for you if you have any questions at all.

Julia in MD

(co-moderator of a The Balanced Mind Foundation support group)

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by elizabeth@lindellfamily.org - 2008-04-13 23:19:28

She was tested for lupus... Had an ANA test, a SED rate and blood count but not a test for Lyme disease or Mono. I am scheduling her annual exam tomorrow and will bring these things up. Thanks so much for the input.

Elizabeth

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Response (2.)... by smallmom - 2008-04-13 23:26:46

Glad your dd will have a full exam soon.

Thyroid function should also be tested, if it hasn't already. Thyroid abnormalities can cause mood changes.

Julia in MD

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Response (3.)... by elizabeth@lindellfamily.org - 2008-04-14 03:47:54

Thank you - we will also test her thyroid. I just want to make it clear that we have been in close contact with her pediatrician for the past 8 months or so. During that time, I felt strongly that what she was going through was physical and not mental. For some reason, I didn't really get it, when other parents who have known her since preK would urge me to see a psychiatrist, saying she just didn't seem like the same child. We were experiencing rages but I thought it was because as I giving in too much and not setting enough limits. Looking back, and after doing research, I realize that her screaming at the top of her voice, hitting and kicking in her bed and throwing chairs for no apparent reason was caused by more than just me offering too many choices. When our pediatrician said she was concerned because Grace (our dd) did not have her usual eye-contact or warmth, we decided to take her to a child psychiatrist. Both of her doctors are among the best in LA. Grace describes her illness as feeling like she has two minds, both are thinking at the same time, but one is more quiet than the other. She says she feels up and down all of the time and never seems to get a break from it. Those are her words and I understand because I was dx bp 20 years ago. I do think it's possible she has something physical going on but I know we need to be respectful of the genetics and it is simply obvious to me and the professionals working with her that, at the least, we are dealing with bpnos.

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Response (3.1.)... by supernova - 2008-04-14 12:26:53

Hi Elizabeth - I sent you an email. My son's BP was triggered by physical illness. In his case it was strep.

In children with an underlying genetic vulnerability something like a physical illness, stress, trauma, etc can trigger a mood disorder.

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Response (4.)... by smallmom - 2008-04-14 23:59:28

Elizabeth,

I hope you didn't think I was assuming you weren't being very thorough with Grace's care. If so, I am truly sorry.

I have two daughters with mood issues who presented with somatic complaints. My 13-year-old daughter's depression and subsequent mood disorder began with headaches and stomachaches. My 9-year-old daughter's acute anxiety and subsequent eating disorder began with difficulty swallowing and nausea. We ruled everything medical out with blood work, MRI, EEG, upper endoscopy. swallow study -- you name it, we did it.

I come from a medical family, and my father taught me that you always need to rule out all physical causes before assuming it is emotional. Some doctors jump too quickly to emotional dxes without fully investigating phsyical causes (as in "it's all in your head").

Obviously, genetics cannot be ignored nor can Grace's very insightful description of what she's feeling. My only point to you is that you need to rule out everything medical in Grace's case because fever is present (which is not a psychiatric symptom).

I hope you get to the bottom of what's going on soon.

Julia in MD, mom to:

Jacob 14.5, BP, migraines (Lamictal, Zonegran, Seroquel, Propranolol)

Annie 13, mood disorder, asthma/allergies (Lamictal, Lexapro, Zyrtec)

Maya 9.5, anxiety/eating disorder (Zyprexa, Remeron)

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Response (5.)... by elizabeth@lindellfamily.org - 2008-04-15 06:54:12

Hi Julia,

No, I didn't think that. I was feeling defensive. I have been defending putting her on meds to almost everyone in our life. Friends and family would say, "Why don't you try a holistic approach?" or "She's too young", etc. and I just felt frustrated again and went on the defense. I know you were being helpful. I so appreciate that. That is what I turned to this message board for. Help and support. So, thank you and I am sorry. I know before I was stabilized with meds and when I felt anxiety, I felt so many physical symptoms. One night, I convinced myself I had a blood clot. Another night, I thought I was having paralysis in my legs. I had it checked out and it was anxiety. I read a book recently, Parenting From the Inside Out, and have realized that although my dd and I may share the same illness, her needs are not my own. Just because my anxiety manifested physical symptoms doesn't mean hers is doing the same. I believe you are right. A fever could mean something more serious. I will keep her on the bipolar meds but will also have her checked out more by her pediatrician and maybe an infectious disease specialist. Thank you for your insight. It is greatly appreciated.

Elizabeth

Grace 9, BPNOS, fevers (Lamictal, Seroquel)

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DISCUSSION: Siblings of bipolar kids? 2008-04-05 08:02:58 2008-04-04 19:45:18

Now that I know my son (age 7) is bipolar I find myself watching my girls (ages 5 and 2) like a hawk. What are the chances that more than one child in a family will have bipolar? I am bipolar as is my mother and her father and so on so that's where he got it from. My 5 year old is really acting up a lot lately. I think it is probably just stuff to do with her brother's bipolar and some issues I've been having with mine as well but I still worry whether its an early sign. My 2 year old is exactly like my son was at her age so that worries me. How many people have more than one child with it and how did it come about that you pursued a diagnosis for a second (or more) child?

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by kotocat - 2008-04-04 20:50:29

All kids strive for attention. Our non-biploar strives for attention in competion with his sister. Suggest is you question things, you get a professional opinion and go form there.

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Response (2.)... by tsprksfmly - 2008-04-04 23:28:15

My son is 14 yrs old(9th grade) and was dx with adhd since 3rd grade and dx bipolar in 6th grade.His father has never been dx w/bipolar although he strongly shows the signs and the fathers sister has been dx w/bp. I believe my father may have had it and possibly my older brother(if not, then depression). My daughter is 10yrs old. She was very diff. from my son - very outgoing, lots of friends, easy going. I noticed some signs of ADD with her(once she got into school) but not really concrete like my son.He showed signs of problems since he was a toddler but she did not. Sometimes she would do things to get attention. so I never knew whether she really was showing signs or not. My daughter began seeing a counselor due to molestation about 2 years ago. She has been struggling with & dx with depression and anxiety. This year(4th grade)she became a diff student. Angry, lying and her perception of reality was way off(she told people she and I were fighting all the time - not true- and she wanted to run away). She would be very upset and the next moment fine and happy go lucky. The pdoc put her on seroquel and she seemed to do fine. Yesterday she talked about killing herself during school in the classroom. So it seems she is beginning to show manic episodes and she is unstable at this time. This is nothing like my son when he showed signs. He heard voices and had deep depression. He had thoughts of death and became even more withdrawn then normal. He would be very explosive and then completely collapse afterwards. He would express his depression and suicidal thoughts on paper,tell a friend, not care about grades and feel worthless.

My suggestion would be to keep a journal of things that you notice about your children. It would help a counselor or pdoc. Go with your gut. If something does not feel right then take them to your doctor. If your 5 yr old is having trouble adjusting to your sons dx then she may benefit from seeing a counselor a few times.

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Response (3.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-05 07:41:53

My son (16) who has bipolar is adopted with no family history known. My other biological son's (10) behavior at times meet the bipolar criteria! It is amazing and if they were biological brothers I would be very concerned. My ten year old has seen and been through a lot with he brother and now I have him in therapy.

I wouldn't take it lightly because of your family history but I wouldn't assume. I agree with seeking professional help. Even if it is not bipolar symptoms I'm sure your child has been through a lot. This becomes a family illness.

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Response (4.)... by jistac - 2008-04-05 08:02:58

Well my middle son is our real special education early onset difficult to treat bipolar child. And our other two were kids who I used to think were "perfect" easy-going emotionally stable kids.

My daughter started to get moody and her personality started to change when she was a Junior in HS. We thought it just had to do with growing up, separation, PMS and the stress of college applications. We expressed our concerns to our pdoc but he didn't think it was anything more than typical-teen behavior and suspected that we were just being paranoid because of our son. But after getting admitted to her first choice college she started to struggle even more. One day she showed up at home mid-day completely unable to function. In the emerging of the BP she also developed an eating disorder NOS as a way of coping with the BP.

My youngest child seemed the least likely to end up with BP. But after getting Mono last year he seemed to have these episodes where he would not be interested in playing with his friends. He is normally a very social little boy so this was of concern to us. He seemed unusually mopey and he was starting to complain about having sleep problems and developed dark circles under his eyes. We decided to put him on Empower as a preventative. We figured the vitamins couldn't hurt and they may help. He has been doing great but two weekends ago due to sleep overs and forgetfulness he didn't take the vitamins for 2 days. Monday he woke up and he could barely function. He was the saddest little puppy. He didn't want to go to his Bass lesson, which he loves and he was saying he felt sick. We made him take his morning dose of vitamins and his lunch dose and by the end of his Bass lesson he was chatting up a storm and he clearly felt much much better.

So I guess we are three for three. In our case we believe the BP comes from my MIL's family. Nobody is officially dx but there is the Aunt who has periods of having massive amounts of energy. There are the individuals who clearly deal with debilitating depression and there is this low level of dysfunction that is hard to put one's finger on. My SIL seems to be the most ill of all the family members but she has enough periods of functioning that it is easy for everyone to just ignore her issues.

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DISCUSSION: spent weekend at children's hospital 2008-04-16 09:35:28 2008-04-14 22:39:16

OK not a fun subject but keep track of kids bowel movements. Kids want to live off of macaroni & cheese or pizza, a lot of these meds cause constipation.

It has been ongoing with Angel since she was 6yo now 13yo. After years of me nagging every medical or psychiatric professional around about Angel's bowel movements I finally got the referral necessary to be able to take her to a GI specialist. He pushed around her abdomen for about 30 seconds then told me take her straight to emergency he was calling ahead so they will be ready for us.

So they put an IV in her (with 1mg of Ativans help) and tried to get her to drink this gallon jug of "Go Lightly" (should call it human drano LOL). She said it tastes like sewer water (it is gross) She wouldn't drink it so they had to get it in with a feeding tube. When she heard they were gonna put a tube in her stomach by way of her nose she decided she was out of there and bolted down the back staircase (emergency exit only alarm sounds). With nurses and me following she was all the way down to first floor before super nurse Raina caught her (from 5th floor). 2 more mg of Ativan and 6 point restraints later we finally got the tube down her nose after 3 tries (kept going in her lung). 4 enema's and several X-rays later she was finally dismissed.

Things I learned kid needs lots more water & fiber, glass of miralax every day for Angel & I need to chart her bowel movements too. My kid is so lucky she did not have surgery, she literally lost 12 pounds and it was all poop.

HOSPITAL PHARMACY - if going to a children's hospital make sure you have all your kids meds with you as a lot not approved by the FDA for kids the hospital won't have.

All in all I have to say though that it was the most user friendly hospital I have ever seen. For the parents food, laundry, showers, internet computers, phone use, couch to sleep in room, VCR & DVD in room - library full of tapes all at no extra charge. Fully staffed playrooms with crafts & computer or whatever else kids would want, video games that can go in rooms or laptops with internet. Angel had bolted so she had a sitter all weekend that never left her side even when I was there.

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by - 2008-04-14 23:46:58

sounds like you and daughter have been through a lot!

Re the carbs and constipation etc. etc., it is not unusual for our kids to have these problems. One reason for the carb cravings (typical of bp) is that they allow tryptophan (serotonin precurser) to be ferried across the brain/blood barrier; proteins inhibit this. And refined carbs (pasta, bread, crackers etc.) lead to constipation, which inhibits proper nutritional absorption, which contributes to the bp symptomology - a vicious circle kind of thing.

To add to this, is the problem of gluten sensitivities (not true celiac allergy, but damaging to the GI system non the less) that can also play a role. DAN! protocol calls for gluten/casein free diets and though I couldn't wrap my head around the concept - thought it was a bit "out there", lo and behold my daughter tested significantly sensitive to gluten, cow milk, and egg albumin (white) and elimating (or reducing, she is 20 now...) has really helped her symptoms.

So maybe our experience can serve as an educational cautionary tale, and spur some to have their children tested as well. Not part of the normal MD protocol - we had to use an ND (naturopathic Dr.).

Best,

Rebecca

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Response (2.)... by nancyo - 2008-04-15 19:03:16

I am so sorry that your daughter had to go through that. My son also had a trip to the emergency room a number of years ago due to being badly constipated. I didn't know that was the problem. I thought his pain might be an appendicitus. We struggled on and off for several years with this problem. His diet was terrible - too many carbs and fatty foods. Eventually he too was diagnosed with a gluten sensitivity (not celiac though). Fiber supplements helped somewhat, but that was only part of the solution. Eventually he started taking digestive enzymes (for gluten) and that helped somewhat too.

Nancy

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Response (2.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-16 09:35:28

Yep, my girl too. Has struggled with constipation her WHOLE life. Even as an infant it was bad. She has the colon of a 60 yo at age 15!! It STINKS!! But she does what she has to to manage it. Usually supplements when needed.

Cheri

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DISCUSSION: FDA Recalls/Supplements 2008-04-11 14:01:53 2008-04-11 14:01:34

Herbal Science International, Inc. Recalls Twelve Dietary Herbal Supplements Nationwide Because of Possible Health Risk Associated with Ephedra, Aristolochic Acid and Human Placenta (April 10)

From: U.S. Food & Drug Administration (FDA) (fda@service.govdelivery.com)

Sent: Fri 4/11/08 8:10 AM

To: dandkcraig@hotmail.com

Herbal Science International, Inc. Recalls Twelve Dietary Herbal Supplements Nationwide Because of Possible Health Risk Associated with Ephedra, Aristolochic Acid and Human Placenta (April 10)

Fri, 11 Apr 2008 07:49:00 -0500

Herbal Science International, Inc. (AKA Jen-On Herbal Science International, Inc.) is recalling twelve dietary supplements that contain ephedra, aristolochic acid or human placenta because they may present a serious health hazard to consumers.

Sorry if the link doesn't come through. You can find more info at FDA.

RESPONSES:

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DISCUSSION: EXCITING NEWS - MOVING TO OUR NEW HOME! 2008-04-16 10:06:08 2008-04-15 10:29:02

As you know, The Balanced Mind Foundation has been working hard to provide our members with a better, more user friendly and versitile platform for our message boards and support groups. This Friday we will be moving to our new home. This will require that we close the message boards for several hours so that we can move over active discussion threads.

Archived discussions will all be moved over as well and housed in a folder so that you will have access to them just as you've had on this platform.

We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause but are confident that the short interruption will be well worth it and that you will enjoy the new features of our message boards.

If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to email me.

Nanci Schiman, MSW

The Balanced Mind Foundation Program Coordinator

nschiman@thebalancedmind.org

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by bipolarparent - 2008-04-15 11:16:31

OK,

We are past a major bump in the road and we have our 20 year old DD home.. We have taken her car away also.

Now she is home and hopping on her bike. That's OK, but now she is stopping in visiting people. She walked up the street to talk to the neighbors yesterday. Today she is stopping in at her old high school to talk to her old art teacher... of course both visits unanounced.

What next? She seems to be unable to focus. She has a book about BP and artists but she has only read 2 pages. I asked her if she can read and focus and she said yes.

My wife thankfully works only on the weekend and I work during the week so we have coverage. We feel she is bored.

If I give her car back she will be driving back to college where we don't want her.

She may be able to get her job at the Y but we don't know if she can hanlde it....?

What should I do now? How do we help her structure her time?

I will be talking to her about it tonight to get her take on things.

Regards,

Bipolarparent.

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Response (2.)... by mamaw-wi - 2008-04-15 15:23:50

How exciting --- I suppose you are all very busy. I am wondering if you are getting your e-mails at all. I have been trying to reach somebody to talk to about our very urgent and rapidly changing situation but can not find anyone in the chatroom and do not seem to be getting any response to my e-mails as well. My dg has now getting expelled from school for pulling a fire alarm this morning. Her lithium is not up to therapeutic levels yet, she is discharged from her partial hospitalization program and her Dr will not rain the dose until she can see her next week Wednesday. Her moods are rapidly changing and every minute is unpredictable. She no longer believes anyone can help her. We are looking into a residential facility for girl's 13 to 17 in Milwaukee but do not seem to be able do anything quickly enough and there is no apparent help while we are trying. Any suggestions?? Thanks

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Response (2.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-15 16:37:46

Maybe check her into an inpatient hospital until the meds are stabilized? That's what I would do!!

Cheri

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Response (2.2.)... by nschiman - 2008-04-16 10:06:08

I am so sorry, I did get your email and I've been meaning to call you. I will send you an email backchannel and set up a time to call you today.

Nanci S.

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Response (3.)... by fizbin - 2008-04-15 21:52:29

I would also hospitalize her. Also is she classified as Special Ed? If so they cannot expel her without a hearing that determines if her actions were a result of her disability if so they cannot expel her.

You might want to check out the Wrights Law website at www.wrightslaw.com for more information.

For more information on RTC's check out www.natsap.org

Good luck and keep us posted

Eileen

The Balanced Mind Foundation Parent to Parent volunteer

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DISCUSSION: She's back home, I think she is bored, now what? 2008-04-16 12:43:22 2008-04-15 11:22:44

OK,

We are past a major bump in the road and we have our 20 year old DD home.. We have taken her car away also.

What next? She seems to be unable to focus. She has a book about BP and artists but she has only read 2 pages. I asked her if she can read and focus and she said yes.

My wife thankfully works only on the weekend and I work during the week so we have coverage. We feel she is bored.

If I give her car back she will be driving back to college where we don't want her.

She may be able to get her job at the Y but we don't know if she can hanlde it....?

What should I do now? How do we help her structure her time?

I will be talking to her about it tonight to get her take on things.

Regards,

Bipolarparent.

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by andyl - 2008-04-15 11:35:42

It sounds to me like she is a socialable gal. What about getting her into volunteering? Also, online courses. Can she handle working somewhere else? Good luck!

Andrea

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Response (2.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-15 12:42:51

She may be able to work a couple of hours at a time at the YMCA. What was her position? My son would do one kids sports activity after school. You did change your name, right? I just wanted to make sure you were the same!

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Response (2.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-15 16:40:37

Is she taking her meds? Brianna went "past visiting" when she was going downhill. Still can't say why, just that she was trying to find some connection to something and remember a time when she was actually happy.

Cheri

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Response (3.)... by bipolarparent - 2008-04-16 07:25:39

Yes, changed my information, not that you can't look back on my old posts and see who I am...

My DD for some reason does not want to work at the Y. She was bored while life guarding there in the past....

She applied at a local thrift store after my wife told her we thought she was getting bored.

My wife is very upset with the latest situation, and life in general... Don't know if its what we are going through or the death of her mother which happened about a week earlier, probably a combination of both things... She keeps saying she does not feel she will ever have a normal life. I keep telling her to hold it together and we will make it... Things could be a lot worse... Was at the Dentist Monday and the lady was cleaning my teeth. She has pictures of her family and her son everywhere. We always talk about him. I asked her what grade he was in now and she said "My son is Dead" I was in shock, I said "I am so sorry, I did not know" She said "He died in January, needless to say its been a terrible year". I did not ask for details, I just thought to myself that as bad as things are, or get with my daughter at least we still have her.

My wife and her mother were best friends. I told my wife that maybe all of this with my daughter happened for a reason. Maybe they will now get beyond the mother-daughter relationship and go for the best friends relationship... One can only hope.

Sending in all signed college withdrawal slips today. Daughter started crying while signing the papers. She said she was signing them now because she knows she is bipolar, but that it is very hard for her to understand it.

Moving forward, the best way to go for now.

Regards,

Bipolarparent

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Response (3.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-16 09:31:00

Does she realize how FANTASTIC having BP can be?!! I know that may sound really weird, but once you learn how to manage the symptoms you can really have quite a great life! Did you know we have presidents that were BP, and currently have congressmen/women that are? Not too mention all the actors and artists!!! BP people are usually EXTREMELY intelligent, gifted, and creative beings. She just needs to get a handle on her symptoms and learn how to manage them. She CAN and if she REALLY wants to- go back to college once she gets this under control!! She needs to study and learn about her disorder! That is THE BEST thing she could do for herself right now.

Your wife has been devastated from both sides! When it rains it pours...would she be willing to see a therapist herself? Just for right now, to get her thru this rough spot life has thrown at her. Just an idea.

((((HUGS!!! to you all!!!!)))))

Love & Peace,

Cheri

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Response (3.2.)... by caroline.mooney@comcast.net - 2008-04-16 12:43:22

I know what your wife is going through, and all I can say is, if I had had to deal with my mom passing away at the same time my kid became so severely ill with bp, I would have had to have myself committed. Truly. Fortunately (what a bizarre word to use in this circumstance!), these two events were separated by many years, and my mom wasn't alive to see my dd completely fall apart at age 7.

If your wife would like to email me directly, I would be happy to correspond with her. She is dealing with devastating issues.

Caroline

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Response (4.)... by bipolarparent - 2008-04-16 11:39:09

I have told her that being BP in her field is not such a bad thing. Told her if I was going to hire an artist I would want one that was BP... Going to talk to her college today, I am going to ask if they have any support groups for BP. This is a top school, you don't get in unless you are extremely gifted. The dean intimated that what my daughter is going through is not uncommon. I'll bet you can't have a top art school without extremely creative people (BP people). As stated in one of my earlier posts one of the BP students took their own life by throwing himself in front of a train last week... Apparently his pdoc was changing his meds around...? My DD knew him. Many students have revealed their BP status to my DD since word has gotten out about her BP.

My wife and I did visit the therapist last week with an open invite to visit her some more. I will suggest that my wife visits her again, perhaps alone.

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DISCUSSION: Do they HAVE to have therapy? 2008-04-17 19:18:34 2008-04-15 16:44:57

Before you bombard me!!! :) Colton is TOTALLY against therapy at all. Brianna has been stable and managing VERY well since her med change and sees the school counselor every Tuesday where they discuss her anxiety issues. Colton still has his outbursts, but fewer and farther between and gets it back under control relatively quickly. So is it absolutely necessary to make them do therapy if things are going smoothly and they really don't want to?

Cheri

Brianna-15 on the 28th

Colton-just turned 12

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by caroline.mooney@comcast.net - 2008-04-15 19:33:38

Now, there's a question! My dd (10) has been going for therapy weekly for more than 2 years. Since the first of the year, the tdoc said she could cut back to every other week. DD also sees the school psychologist 1x per week and participates in small group at school also.

Having said all that, I am on the fence. For over a year, dd was very unstable, and I really felt the tdoc visits were a waste of time and money. There are those who believe that, even when unstable and therefore unable to implement the coping strategies the tdoc would try to work on, some of it was sinking in, and that when you get to better stability the kids are able to draw on all that. I don't know. I've not seen that yet.

Our current pdoc also expends a lot of time and energy trying to discuss coping strategies with dd. I am rapidly getting to the point where I will quit digging into my wallet to pay for all this. When stable, dd is kind, compliant, helpful, neat and organized. When her stability is not good, she has a hard time with all these things, and I don't know what therapy is supposed to do for an unstable child. We had a period over the winter and again this spring where due to schedule conflicts, dd didn't see the tdoc for 6 weeks at a clip. I saw no appreciable difference in her behavior, and like your kids, she is not wild about going. The only upside is that she does occasionally discuss her feelings with the tdoc. But she does this more with the school psychologist.

So, Cheri, I guess I'll be interested to see who else chimes in on this topic, because I'd like to know if it's really worth the currently $400 per month I spend on out of pocket co-pays for therapy.

Caroline

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Response (1.1.)... by pumpkin - 2008-04-15 19:42:16

I have to chime in here. I truly believe that therapy does not work when unstable. Period. And, when stable, the need for therapy goes away. I think parents are the ones needing the therapy!!!!! LOL.

I am speaking from experience of over 3 years. Hope this helps some.

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Response (1.1.1.)... by gorman@cybermesa.com - 2008-04-15 20:48:57

Boy, you hit the nail on the head, for us at least. I have had 3 consecutive therapists tell me that they couldn't really do much to help Dane because his issues are so chemically driven that they didn't know what to do to help him. We're trying a new one on Friday, because our insurance insisted. We'll see.

Erika, New Mexico

Son, Dane, 12, BP,NLD,Aspergers: 900mg Lithium, 20 mg Abilify, 100 mg Lamictal,

100 mg amantadine

Daughter, Kelsey, 16, no problems

Son, Ethan 18, No problems

StepSon Bill, 14, Hearing impaired

Husband, Bill, Saint

Tons of animals

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Response (2.)... by helpangel - 2008-04-15 20:49:58

We have medicaid so we have to go through community mental health with the county. It became obvious to me in the first 6 months I was providing more therapy then the therapists were. After about 7 years of "intensive in home" we finally came to the conclusion that my family is better on case management. Angel simply does not respond well to any of their therapies they tried. Several times police were called to the house by therapist because of stuff like Angel slamming them in the face with their notebook computer or once she threw file cabinet at the worker. Trying to work with their reward charts was getting my windows broken and hair ripped out.

Now I make reports to a case manager, let her know which camp or program I want them to cut checks for, I co-ordinate her services - appointments pdoc, developmental ped.,PCP, GI, endo, stuff like art programs, OT etc. Case manager contacts pdoc during off hours if needed for me I have 24 hour cell phone for her and if she doesn't answer or return call in 15 minutes I got cell #s for several others up the chain of command where pdoc is. Another nice thing they have here is a mobile crisis unit thru the county so if get in over my head THEY SEND THE TEAM TO ME :smile:

I would advise checking in your area to find out what kind of crisis services are available. Also a lot of Pdocs will only prescribe if you work with a therapist at their clinic but if you are good at finding resources and have a pdoc who is willing to let therapist work as a case manager I would say go for it - it's working for us.

Nancy

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Response (2.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-15 22:48:44

Our MHMR here doesn't work like that. Maybe after we move I can start searching for something like this. Mostly they just need skills training I believe and with everything I am reading, studying, and educating myself on I am starting to think I can probably handle it on my own.

Cheri

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Response (3.)... by givnmegryhr - 2008-04-15 22:38:37

My son, also Colton -9, has been through so much therapy in home and out, we've had in home family therapy too. My opinion? I found it to be a joke. The supervisor of the family therapy basically told me that I knew more about pediatric bipolar than they do! Even the behavioralist said that therapy won't help when he's unstable. They all agreed it was up to finding the right meds. I thought therapy was just a huge waste of our time.

Sheri bp,lamictal, wellbutrin

mom to Colton 9,bp nos,adhd,odd, risperdal,depakote,klonopin

Ryli 10, Logan 12 and Max 15 -no problems

married for 18 yrs to Bud

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Response (3.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-15 22:52:36

Yes, I have done sooo much reading and studying BP the last few months I have already learned I know more about it than the kids' last therapists and after initial 1st mtg with new ones today, I think I probably know more than these 2 also!! In fact one of them asked me for information on this very site!! :) Glad to spread the word, but now doubt she can offer Brianna much. I told her she mostly needs help with social skills, nonverbal language cues, and anxiety copers. All we talked about was MY history with my mom and ex husband! :eyeroll:

Cheri

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Response (4.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-04-15 23:34:22

We stopped spitting out all the hundreds, maybe thousands, of dollars on therapy about 2 years ago. You cant "counsel" someone out of a chemical imbalance or brain disorder anymore that you can "talk" a diabetic out of having diabetes. Our insurance said we had to have therapy set up before we left Meridell, so I made phone calls and then cancelled them after we were home. If they (the insurance) were really concerned about her, they would have let her stay longer in RTC and get more stable!

Cyndi

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Response (5.)... by boomom - 2008-04-16 05:13:27

It depends on the kind of therapy, the goals of therapy, the skill of the therapist and the child's ability to implement what the therapist is teaching. Our DD's been in therapy for 9 years. She's been stable for about 4 of those 9 years with meds and therapy. I think she's farther than she'd be without it. Studies show it's necessary because therapy works on a different part of the brain than meds and that it has more longterm effect. But as with anything, wrong med, wrong therapist - it would be useless. It's up to us to find the right therapist for our kids and training may be ab issue depending upon where you live. Do what feels right to you and then wait for the results to make a decision.

Peace,

Alyson

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Response (6.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-16 09:21:08

I read her our discussions and this is her take on it...therapy helps when I am depressed, which is part of being unstable. To be able to talk to a professional that knows how to talk back to you to help get you thru it, but they usually just give you steps to take to bring yourself back and tell you to use those things next time it happens. Problem is by the time the "next time" happens I have forgotten what they told me to do!! :) So really it doesn't do much good at all. What seems to help me most is helping someone else thru a bad time. And when I'm stable-well, what the heck am I going to talk to this woman about tomorrow?!! I ain't got anything to say!! :) :)

So we'll see if we go back after today! :) What a girl I've got, eh?

:cool:

I hope one of the "pros" on The Balanced Mind Foundation will chime in here too! I think I am going to try to get into chat tomorrow with the guest speaker and see what I can find out there. Maybe see some of ya there tomorrow?

Cheri

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Response (7.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-16 11:28:30

No one HAS to have therapy. It's just incredibly helpful. Maintaining a theraputic relationship is beneficial to preventing relapse while in recovery/remission. And maintaining the theraputic relationships will make it easier to go into more intensive therapy should the need arise.

It could be acceptable to reduce the frequency of visits. Healthy folks only go to a general practitioner once or twice a year, right?

Working together, patients, parent, and doctors, can decide on a theraputic schedule that best suits the patients current needs and desires.

Best wishes in therapy decision making.

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Response (8.)... by andyl - 2008-04-16 16:01:08

From my experience it was a waste of time for my ds, but the therapist would always spend some of the time with me. It was very helpful for me to have someone to talk to and if needed I could call. My ds also realized that I was talking to someone about his behaviors, which I think held him somewhat accountable. He also had anger management at school. The best thing for him was the right meds.

Andrea

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Response (9.)... by fizbin - 2008-04-16 17:29:56

In my experience therapy is good for learning about how to cope despite this illness. When you are actively sick you behave a certain way and that doesn't necessarily work when you are well. So therapy helps you learn more effective ways of living and relating. It also helps you gain insight into your illness and learn how to manage it.

It's hard it not impossible to do good therapy with someone who is against the whole idea, so it might not work well for Colton right now, but it's an idea I would definitely explore for the future or for you daughter. It cannot hurt and may do some good.

Eileen

The Balanced Mind Foundation Parent to Parent Volunteer

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Response (10.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-16 20:21:57

Well, Brianna DEFINATELY won't see that tdoc again!! I kinda figured it would work out the way it did when the woman kept asking me about MY life yesterday. Bri almost walked out on her! The woman kept referring to Tim as her "step-dad" which is VERY frustrating to Bri cuz Tim has been her dad since she was 3yo and adopted her when she was 6! Then she kept trying to convince Bri she was suicidal in the past cuz of family issues!! :angry: Obviously this woman has NO IDEA what she is talking about!!

Colton's tdoc on the other hand was FANTASTIC!! And Colton said he wouldn't mind seeing him again. They went outside and threw the football around and when they came in they shot mini-hoop basketball! Boy, does this guy know HOW to "get" my boy!! :grin:

The new pdoc is FABULOUS!!! Very well informed about ped. BP. I posed the therapy question to him and he said mainly they just need therapy when there is some kind of stress or crisis going on in their lives that upsets them. For instance, a death, school, peer, or family difficulties. But if they seem to be handling it okay then don't push it. Some people deal with these kinds of things just fine and others can fall apart. So just be aware of how well they are handling these types of life ups and downs as they happen. He said it wouldn't appear to him Bri would need any right now, but Colton may want to until he gets his anger back under control. Which will probably happen anyway when we increase his Abilify from 5 to 10 mg. Colton has been going thru a growth spurt the last 2 mths and has gained approx 15 lbs since starting Abilify. The pdoc said this was why he was probably not getting the same amount of help from his med as he had been previously.

WOW!!! WHAT A GIGANTIC HUMONGOUS RELIEF to FINALLY talk with a pdoc that KNOWS what he is talking about!!! :goofy: So for now, Bri is OUT of therapy and Colton and I will talk about it more later this week after the additional Abilify kicks in.

I still hope others put in their 2 cents on this topic though!!!

Love & Peace to ALL!!!

Cheri

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Response (11.)... by stephanini@comcast.net - 2008-04-16 20:40:43

My son hates to go to therapy, all the talk of usually negative incidents that occur most often at school make him very angry. He tires quickly of too much talking and questions. I like having that extra person to advocate fopr Michael at IEP meetings and with the school, because she visits the school also. Also, if there is ever a problem that he would feel more comfortable not talking to me about he knows there is someone else. I also want to keep in mind that I may not always be around and I want him to be comfortable with reaching out to others that may not be in his immediate family. But all in all I don't find therapy that helpful in the way that its intended to help.

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Response (12.)... by jistac - 2008-04-17 07:02:35

I believe:

1: A Bad therapist can do more harm than good. Be careful. It is especially important that the therapist have experience and knowledge about pediatric BP and can interface with the psychiatrist.

2: When a child is very unstable they need to learn coping techniques but they might not be able to learn them from a stranger or an outsider given the nature of the illness. The best tool is to give the parents intensive therapy about how to cope and work with an unstable child. As it is parents with a BP kid probably need therapy as having a kid with these issues is incredibly stressful on the marriage and the house.

3: Real useful therapy requires work from the patient. I liken therapy to physical therapy. Physical therapy can be exhausting and difficult and uncomfortable at times. Talk therapy can also be uncomfortable and challenging. The child needs to want to work on the issues they need to work on. Otherwise therapy won't be effective because the child won't want to do the hard uncomfortable and challenging work. It is the parents job with the help of the therapist to get the child to the place where they realize they need therapy and help for their problems. And this can take years and might not happen until the child is in their teens.

4: How much therapy a child needs depends on how severe their BP is, when it got treated and how it has impacted their life. Some BP kids get treated and they are fine and don't need any therapy. But others like my son had been sick for so long and have other issues impacting his ability to cope that he needs intensive therapy.

5: There are different types of therapy. My son has cognitive issues that may or may not be related to his BP. We do know that his BP aggravates his cognitive functioning though. He just started working with a Cognitive Behavioral Psychologist who is teaching him how his brain is structured and how it works while giving him techniques to learn effectively. It is miraculous and our son is excited by the work he is doing with this guy because there is REAL concrete progress. This is very different than "talk therapy" which focuses on emotions and recent events.

I have also heard from my BP daughter who was in the hospital last year and from my son's school that many teens report that DBT is very effective and useful. DBT stands for Didactical Behavioral Therapy. Don't ask me to explain what it is or how it is done. But I do know that teens with a wide range of issues are finding it to be very useful.

Jistac

CAM Board Moderator

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Response (13.)... by bipolarparent - 2008-04-17 09:46:34

For my new diagnosed 20 year old DD I feel the therapy is good right now. She could not come to grips with BP and was in denial. When the therapist finally read the proper diagnosis she was able to persuade my daughter that she had BP.

I do agree that when my daughter was in the manic states that no amount of therapy would have brought her out of it.

With the BP we have found that she has developed a mistrust of us. We are no longer trusted on any of her care decisions. Its like she feels we are out to get her, although she knows we are looking out for her and she knows we love her.

Yesterday I had a long discussion with my DD about gradually working toward more responsibility. She said she is coping now and trying to get her life in order, said she is trying to keep her room neat and keeping a calendar. Said she was unable to read her book on bipolar, too much to handle. We agreed that we had a long way to go if she was going to attend college full time again in the fall...

So, I'm hoping that the therapist will be able to help my daughter cope and give her some skills so that she can re-engage.

Regards,

BipolarParent

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Response (13.1.)... by pumpkin - 2008-04-17 19:18:34

Aha!! Maybe it works better when they are older and more mature!! Good to know!!!

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DISCUSSION: On letting go... 2008-04-18 08:49:48 2008-04-16 14:32:02

Wow. What a year!

Please allow me this rant, and then give some feedback - please!

My 18 year old dd with bipolar has gone from this to that and back to there and oh no this, etc...She has had two suicide attempts in the past 16 months; has been on an independent study program for her senior year; has gone from wanting to move to Maui (with family) to wanting to move back down to So Cal (we moved just prior to her junior year to Central Cal) to agreeing to attend a local jc to now plans to move to So Cal yet again...

I am sad, angry, scared and pissed off...This feels like a slap in the face and at the same time I know that I need to let go and to allow her to do her life her way...However, we have kept a "safe" home, i.e., meds/sharps all locked up (still are) and giving/doing everything/anything she wanted all in the name of keeping her/making her happy...Not that she ever asked this of me, but all the while doing all of the above at the expense of me time/myself, and my son and my husband...And now she is just splitting...And I am supposed to take her flighty impulsive words for it that this is a positive step?

I am being selfish, and I (think?) I know this...I am feeling abandone (?), and why? Why in the world am I taking this as a slap in my face? Why in the world am I angry?

Why can't I just let go and have faith and wish her well?

Please send some words of wisdom my way...I am at such a loss.

~ Penny

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by 2green - 2008-04-16 18:12:44

It might be because you kept your home so stable for your daughter that she has the confidence to venture out on her own. How she does is anyone's guess. Don't take it as a slap in the face; take it as a thanks for making her feel capable. It is the normal chain of events to eventually move out. I have four adult children who have had their ups and downs(lots of downs),but are all on their own (right now anyway). You can always find something to worry about, but it will just stress you out.

lb-mom and grandma to 11yr old

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Response (2.)... by mendmend - 2008-04-16 23:05:14

I don't know if this is helpful at all, but my own daughter has trouble making definite plans. In her case it has to do with the (IMO mistaken) idea that there are right and wrong choices. (I'm not talking stupid boneheaded choices, just "should I do this, should I do that" kind of choices).

I have found that constant reassurance that there are no "wrong choices" - everything leads to something.... and planning. Nothing major can happen without a "plan". So if she wants to go to S. Cal. great, as long as there is a realistic plan in place. If not - no.

When my daughter wants to take off with no plan, that is a sign to me that she is unstable. I mean a little trip sure, but there are buses, planes, hostels etc. that need to be arranged first. Big moves mean big committments.

I so hear you when you say you have bent over backwards, and feel slap in the face as that is my modus operandi too. (I'm working on it LOL). But we have also let daughter live on her own from 16, as we moved 2 hrs away and she wouldn't - forcing would have led to bad things. So she had freedom with strings, and we were always there asap if there were problems. Now she is 20, and this incremental "letting go" is working well. She has her life, I see her once a week or so, and am just a phone call away.

Your daughters wanting to go may be a good sign that she needs to leave the nest (big or small steps) or it may be that she is unstable and thinks change of location will mean change of head space.

So no solutions, but plenty of sympathy and support.

Best,

Rebecca

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Response (2.1.)... by macandcheese - 2008-04-17 15:57:02

Thanks...I am feeling better today...Not so angry and hurt.

We are all talking openly, planning, etc...DD seems genuinely happy and confident about this (current?) plan. Our friends whom she shall live with are very in-tune with mental health issues as their son also suffers from mental illnes, as does their older daughter.

There will be rules/regulations...My friend is considering our dd's stay with them/their home to be a safe house/ dorm...As long as she is clean/sober and a full-time student they are more than happy to give her a safe place in which to live...We have same rules here for her as they will down in So Cal...

So...Thanks for the input...It's so appreciated.

Now will come the hard part...The actual letting go...

~ Penny

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Response (3.)... by kotocat - 2008-04-17 18:46:34

Penny,

I think you've touched alot mothers with your message. I know it's one of my greatest fears. We put so much of ourselves into taking care of our child's special needs. Then they leave us with the uncertainties on... how will they fare with living on their own. Please keep informed of the progress.

I'm sure you have done your the best.

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Response (4.)... by bipolarparent - 2008-04-18 08:49:48

When I read your note I first got to thinking about me, my two sisters, and my brother... Not sure if we had BP, well, I think my sister is and my other sister was on depression meds for about 10 years.. My grandmother had a psychotic event at 20 and I know my ant is BP, I can't be around her... Anyway, we were all out of the house on our own by 18 or a little older. Brother in the army, my one sister hopped around from tourist towns like Provincetown to Telluride. Other sister was out by 18 for sure. I dropped out of college and was lured into publishing by a BP boss that did not take meds for 10 years I worked for him.. (a wild ride) I did the 15 year night school plan for my BA... Not to minimize BP in your childs equation, but your concerns are shared by the parents of every young adult. Thankfully for my family we all landed on our feet, 3 of us got degrees and my brother is doing very well as a medical equipment technician.

My best friend was coddled at home and lived there until he was 35... No ambition. He is the smartest man I know making 1/4 of what he is worth...

My brother-in-law was kicked out at 19, he said it was the best thing that ever happened to him....

So, back to your daughter, sounds like you have a structured environment waiting for her. Maybe its the right time for her to spread her wings...

My daughter is 20 and was out on her own for 2-3 years... Now with the BP she is home again and I'm hoping she can re-engage and get back to school...

I'm not a religious person, but after my daughters BP diagnosis I now have the first four lines of the Serenity Prayer hanging in my cube...

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DISCUSSION: Allergies,anxiety or what? 2008-04-17 01:15:27 2008-04-16 21:09:06

Michael has been having these episodes where he says he can't breath right and he gets mad and thinks he's going to die. We were thinking along the lines of panic attack. After the addition of Lithium for a week he had no incidents. We increased last week and he's had more but I don't think it's the Lithium because he had these before he started on it. Today he had this while we were picking up a sandwhich and started violently punching himself in the stomach and scratching himself stating he'd rather die of beating himself than die of losing his breath. He calmed in the car and asked if we could go to this park he likes, he was back to normal and we had time to kill before we got his sister so we did. He had another one and started saying" I'm just going to walk off this cliff because I'd rather die that way than die of losing my breath. It was only a creek embankment and he didn't seem to have a real intent to hurt himself so we walked back to car. He calmed. This is the first time he's done anything like that. It was horrific to watch him punching himself like that. His breathing appears fine except it seems he's taking deep breaths purposefully. He says because he's not getting enough air. He says his throat was numb. I've taken him to doctor, pediatrician, and psych. I'm perplexed. It seems to occur more when he's been outside or in a stuffy room and is alleviated by air conditioning or coming inside. He keeps reporting that his air isn't coming through and his throat is skinny. my best guess is possible allergies and he is overreacting to it. There are no other symptoms. He's on Seroqoel 600 mg. Lithium 450 mg. Any ideas?

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by helpangel - 2008-04-16 23:54:38

it felt like 100 Lbs. sitting on my chest, would worry about heart attack which would make the panic attack worse. Angel when goes into an intense rage gets so worked up breaks out in hives and will be choking like she is gasping for breath. I would ask pdoc for a PRN some come in a quick melt so don't need water.

Nancy

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Response (2.)... by michasmom - 2008-04-17 01:15:27

Prior to my dd being hospitalized, she had a similar experience. We were trying to change meds, so I thought it was a reaction. The dr could not find anything wrong. We did not realize that she was having psychotic symptoms like voices and hallucinations at that time. I have always wondered if it was a symptom of the psychosis since it never happened again once in the hospital and stabilized.

Just an idea.

Chandra

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DISCUSSION: If anyone is entering the chat session today... 2008-04-17 12:22:08 2008-04-17 12:22:08

Would you please ask him the therapy or not question for me?!!! School just called and I have to go get Bri and won't be able to attend!! THANKS!!!

Cheri

RESPONSES:

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DISCUSSION: Daughter is back home... 2008-04-14 21:15:49 2008-04-14 20:37:55

Got my daughter officially back home after several mess ups by our medical professionals.

She signed her medical leave papers from college. She is on full strength meds and doing well. Still seems a bit groggy. She is not exactly the girl she was, but she is still with us...

She told me a boy at her Art school threw himself in front of a train. Apparently he was BP and docters had messed up his meds. She found that many other people are BP in her art school, no surprise there since many artists are BP.

Moving forward. She wants to be a camp counselor this July, not sure if she is ready for that but she wants to accomplish that goal.... Light and fluffy now, one thing at a time.

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by - 2008-04-14 21:15:49

You have been through a lot in the last few weeks, and have handled all beautifully. I am so glad for you that she is home and safe. Light and fluffy - that is a great phrase, I will be using it myself in future.

Best,

Rebecca

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DISCUSSION: Can My Daughter diagnosed with Bipolar lead a normal life? 2008-04-13 12:42:10 2008-04-09 21:24:05

I suppose reading about people who have bipolar disorder and are successful gave me great hope that over time my dd would be able to live a normal life. DD was diagnosed 2 1/2 years ago, she is now 17 years old and a junior at school for children with special needs.

As I see her adulthood looming in the near future I come face to face with her lack of judgement, inability to focus, her intense desire for immediate gratification and her seeming inability to stick with anything that requires effort.

DD is doing well in her very structed school with 6 students per one teacher and no homework. Yet I can't imagine her being able to attend college or vocational school or work. The effort, discipline and focus simply are not there. I worry dearly about her future.

What becomes of children, soon to be an adult, like my daughter? Your thoughts are very much appreciated as I feel so alone, so worried and confused.

Thank you,

Eternity

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-09 23:06:55

I think different children reach ACTUAL adulthood at different ages/times in their lives. For instance, both of my kids are BP#1, but my son I can see moving out at 18 or 19 and be fine. My girl, on the other hand, who is 3 yrs older, I don't see being able to pull it off until around 25 or so. She has A LOT of the same problems you describe above.

My group leader has a 20 yo that is moving to a group home for adults with mental disorders. All reports she's talked about the place are REALLY good.

I also look at it like this- Yes, it WILL happen. Not WHEN we thought or wanted it to and DEFINATELY not the way we expected it to be for her, BUT it WILL happen-some day and it will be the best it can be FOR HER. And for now, that's enough.

Hang tight Mom!! Don't worry about the "what ifs..." you will go batty!! :) One day, one hour, and yes, sometimes one minute at a time-do the best you can do and have faith in yourself and in your child!

(((HUGS!!)))

Love & Peace,

Cheri

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Response (1.1.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-04-09 23:32:02

Cheri, you always give such great advice! I love reading your posts. They are always so encouraging and uplifting and remind me to look on the positive side and not get bogged down with the uncertainties of life.

Thanks!

Cyndi

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Response (1.1.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-13 12:42:10

Jeez! You have me blushing! :sheepish: But I definately have to disagree!! There are PLENTY of times I'm pretty PO'd and just vent here too!! It just comes less and less these days as my kids are more and more stable. I am sure though my "monsters" will come out again-we are still YOUNG teens with a VERY LONG way to go!!! :goofy:

Cheri

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Response (2.)... by elizabeth@lindellfamily.org - 2008-04-10 04:53:19

I am an adult with bipolar disorder. I consider myself successful. I have a good marriage, feel I am a great mother and I am a freelance writer. Along with the bad aspects of my illness, come some good ones, such as creativity, which I have been able to channel through my writing. When I was younger and first diagnosed, I, too, was not so motivated or focused but after finding the right doctor and medications, I feel mostly balanced. I think, as with any illness, there will always be some bad days but there is, for certain, hope for anyone living with bipolar disorder. I know what it is like to feel lost, alone and scared both as a bipolar patient and a bipolar parent. I also know what it is like to come through the other side. It can be done. If your daughter focuses on her own unique gifts and talents and expands on those, the motivation may follow.

Elizabeth

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Response (3.)... by jistac - 2008-04-10 07:16:37

I think the disease or what we call BP is really a wide variety of illnesses and so it is hard to extrapolate from any one case to any other case.

But I do know that only 6-7 months ago I shared your concern about both my children who are now (17 and 20). We seemed to be fighting demons with both of them and the challenges seemed overwhelming and stability elusive. I cried plenty of tears in our pdocs office and asked the same question you asked. Would our kids ever be able to function in society and live independently. Was my life now destined to be a care provider for them and their needs.

Our pdoc has been doing this for 30 years. He is not one to sugar coat things. He assured me that things would in fact work out and like Cheri said...in their own time. He and our tdoc have told us about previous patients who are now doctors, lawyers and professionals. They have told us about weddings and births. Their patients have gone on to live what I would consider very fulfilling and successful lives.

BTW, when our son was first dx I ran into a college friend. I am not sure why I told her about our son's recent dx, as I had not even told certain family members, but I did. She started to cry. It turned out her dad had BP and then her brother also had BP. She told me her brother was an MIT graduate who was doing well career wise. He was married and his one child had just gotten accepted at Yale. She told me the first year or two after his dx was tough but then things got better. And so life goes on. Everyone has their challenges. with BP we just happen to have a name for it.

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Response (4.)... by eternity - 2008-04-10 07:22:27

Thank you for your inspiring and uplifting advice. I treasure your words.

Eternity

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Response (5.)... by woodleen@aol.com - 2008-04-12 00:20:43

I have a 16 yrold just dx with bp--depressive type. I am spinning, but have background in psychology and am holding on. Why can't I find support groups for HIM? Seems there are nonE! Plenty for us parents---although some I have been to are crying fests about how tough life is for them----they have already given up on their kids. My son needs a forum, and so do I with absolute honesty about the disease, but some interaction with people who have best practices for helping him, and me.

Any direction to a support group specifically for teen bp will be so appreciated!

Neen

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Response (5.1.)... by - 2008-04-12 01:13:30

http://www.nami.org/template.cfm?section=child_and_teen_support

There may be something in your immediate geographic area, but in the meantime, this is a good place to start.

I hope you will find much of the support you need here, but it is always good to find local organizations too. NAMI's Family to Family course was a terrific resource for me; they also offer "Bridges", an educational and support program for those diagnosed with brain disorders - lead by someone who has a brain disorder, so very empowering.

Best,

Rebecca

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Response (5.1.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-12 15:46:16

I was recently directed to a support group website for teens with mental health issues. It is teens-moods.net. They have forums to vent on anger, hallucinations, cutting, etc. Sometimes what gets them down is thinking they are the ONLY ones going thru this crap-this website confirms to them they aren't and sometimes that can really turn things around. Then they also have fun forums and open topics for just cuttin' up and also a place to vent about parents! My girl has ONLY web friends and just started on this site and LOVES it!! She can "go off" for awhile and get it out, then turn around and talk about soap operas and boys!! All at one place! It has been very beneficial to her.

Good Luck!!

Cheri

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DISCUSSION: Epilim and Diagnosis Process 2008-04-18 10:40:19 2008-04-18 07:02:58

Our 8 year old son has just started on Epilim, to stabilise his moods. He will build up to taking 5 tablets a day, and the packet says 100mg, so I assume that means he will be on 500mg a day.

I am just wondering if anyone can tell me anything about this drug - good or bad?

I am also interested in finding out the diagnosis procedure for BP, for your child. Our paedeatrician has told us it will take quite a long time - and involve mainly behavioural assessments over a period of time. My husband's and my own assessments of our son's behaviour definitely indicate BP according to the paed, but that's it so far.

I am thinking he will need to have a child psychiatrist involved - but there simply are NONE in our area, and our nearest capital city won't accept referrals for our area. If I find a child psychiatrist, there will be months and months of waiting to get an appointment - which we'll do of course - but I guess I'm wodnering what the procedure is/was for your child.

It seems to be being taken a little too lightly for our liking. I don't WANT to wait until our son looses control at school and rages and damages people or things - I'd rather we deal with it NOW before it gets to that point! But I have no idea what direction to head.

(I'm in Australia - BP diagnosis in children is WAAAAY behind that in the States)

Thankyou for your help,

Regards,

Rebecca

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by fizbin - 2008-04-18 10:17:25

Epilim is the same as our drug Depakote. It is a mood stabilizer that will help even out your son's ups and downs. It is important that you get regular blood levels to make sure he is in the therapeutic range, that should be between 100-125. The blood tests should be done about 10-12 hours after the last dose was taken.

It can cause weight gain so be careful of his diet.

We are in the process of starting a support group for our Australian members if you are interested in it please let me know at egruber@optonline.net.

Hope this has been some help

Eileen

The Balanced Mind Foundation Parent to Parent Volunteer

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Response (2.)... by kotocat - 2008-04-18 10:40:19

Becky,

Sorry, I can't give you any answers concerning the medication. As far as the need for a child psychiatrist, I would highly recommend that you get on the list if you are able to at least get a consult. I've read that quite a few of us travel to see them because there's a shortage of Drs here too. I started out having my child seen by a regular psychiatrist but, in my case, my daughter seems to have a heightened sensitivity to some drugs. The child Dr understands and has more training in dealing with the differences in children's body chemistries.

What matters is you've seen a Dr and your child is being treated. It's good to be proactive and continue to read everything you can get your hands on. It sounds like you will have to educate others on this disorder. (Something that seems to be common for parents that have a child with a disability)

Glad to hear from you.

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DISCUSSION: She's home/results of neuropsych testing 2008-04-14 10:53:33 2008-04-06 22:19:31

Well, Taryn's is home and doing great! I have NEVER seen her so "in control" in her life. She hasn't gotten upset about ANYTHING since I picked her up at the airport yesterday. Several situations have presented themselves that could have been disasterous in the past. For example, this morning, she couldn't find a pair of earings that she wanted to wear to church. Instead of going into "panic mode" and raging like she would have a few weeks ago, she calmly retraced her steps, looked around for a little bit and then said "oh well. They'll turn up. I'll just wear these instead". OMG! She has NEVER done that before!!! I was in shock. I think I'm still bracing myself for those rages that I've grown so accustomed to. Yesterday, we had to kill 2 1/2 hrs in the Austin airport before our flight. In the near past, that would have been an absolute nightmare. Instead, I felt like I was with someone else's child. We walked around, looked at all the shops, didn't buy anything (in fact, she didn't ask for anything!!!), read magazines and talked a lot. It was like the twilight zone for parents of bipolar! I'm sorry if I sound overly excited, BUT I AM! If this is a dream, I never want to wake up!

I finally got the results of the complete neuropsych assessment. Here are a few quotes from it:

"Taryn's thought process and content were at times circumstantial, tangential and bizarre. She spoke at length about the lives of and her interactions with her 'imaginary parents."

"Her affect and behavior were noted to be 'odd' at times. Taryn would frequently smile for no apparent reason and her smile seemed to be frozen for a period of time. Her speech was often rapid and her thoughts tangential and unusual. Near the end of the session, Taryn took a toy chick out of her pocket. She proceeded to speak to the chick in a serious tone and she complained that the chick had bitten her. She also indicated that the chick was cheeping because he was nervous."

"These results suggest borderline to low average intellectual functioning with weaknesses in the frontal, temporal, and parietal lobe functioning indicated. These weaknesses include significantly depressed auditory working memory, variable, but at times significant difficulties with auditory and visual attention functioning, severe difficulties with cognitive flexibility and sequencing, mild fine motor coordination difficulties, and significant difficulties with visual mortor planning and construction."

Basically, she can't remember what she hears and her brain has trouble switching from one thing to another (ie: gets "stuck")

They gave 3 pages of suggestions for home, school, therapy, etc. I'm very impressed with the thoroughness of the report. We plan on getting her evaluated for physical and occupational therapy and hopefully get her started in those soon. They are supposed to help with "the development of her fine motor skills including visual spatial, visual perceptual, and visual motor planning. These abilities affect school work such as math and writing."

Ok, I'm sure I've bored you to death with all of this, but I just had to share. For the first time in a long while, I feel some hope and optimism.

Thanks again for all your prayers and support!!

Cyndi

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by michasmom - 2008-04-06 23:27:28

Cyndi,

I read the "twilight zone" paragraph to my husband. We both understand that feeling so well like, "It this really my child?".

The other stuff is facinating. I want one! ;-) What an informative assessment that is not only insightful, but useful with suggestions. How old is your daughter? It seems like a remember that she is in her teen years. But I could be thinking of someone else. I would think if she has an iep, that info could help with school and deciding what is best for her education.

Enjoy your daughter!

Chandra

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Response (1.1.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-04-06 23:47:36

Taryn turned 13 in January. She has an IEP. In fact, she is in a self-contained ED class. I plan on giving them a copy of the neuropsych assessment in the morning when I re-enroll her. I think they will find it very helpful.

Cyndi

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Response (2.)... by kotocat - 2008-04-07 09:18:26

I loved the "Lost in space" analogy. So glad to hear , a happy positive message, it gives all of us a sense of hope. Wishing her a smooth transition back into her regular school setting.

If she hasn't been tested by the school system yet you might want to get the paperwork started. I read she has a IEP but don't know what the intial testing consisted of and when it was done. You probally have all that covered.

Thanks for sharing the great news.

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Response (3.)... by andyl - 2008-04-07 13:56:38

I too was impressed with the testing that Meridell does. I would also suggest sitting down with the school and going over the report and how it will translate into accommodations/therapy in school. Then monitor to be sure they are being followed. It is such useful info!

Andrea

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Response (4.)... by jistac - 2008-04-09 21:12:09

Oh do I know the twightlight zone feeling. And the fear that it might end at any moment. One thing that was said to us by one of our doctor's was to remember times like this because they are proof of what our son's potential was for when he finally stabilized as a young adult. And they were right.

Hope all goes well with the school? Do you have an advocate?

She is a lucky girl to have parents who did what you did for her.

Jistac

CAM Board Moderator

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Response (4.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-13 12:16:47

How are things with BOTH girls now? Been thinking of you guys a lot the past week and now that Colton's party is behind me, I need to catch up on everyone else's life!! :)

Cheri

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Response (4.1.1.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-04-13 22:55:06

Cheri,

You are so sweet to always think of asking how the girls are doing! Taryn has been a little down the last few days. No major problems, just sad and quiet. Not sure why. Weekends are always tough with all the unstructured free time. She seems to do much better when every minute of every day is planned. Usually, I try to take her to the park or to feed the ducks or something, but my DH has pneumonia and he's on IV antibiotics every few hours, so I haven't been able to take her anywhere.

Tiffani continues to be irritable and angry all the time. Prom is coming up and not only does she not have a date, all her money has to go to court fees and fines and we don't have the money to buy her a dress. I hate to spend much money on prom after everything she has put us through lately, especially since she doesn't even have a date. She was wanting to go with several of her friends at school. She is also mad because she was caught leaving campus Friday during last period, when she was supposed to go to the library. Now, she will have ISS next week. I don't know why she continues to make bad choices with everything she has been through. Is she ever going to learn? I'm starting to think not! We still have 2 weeks until she sees the pdoc to talk about her meds. We stopped the Prozac and now she doesn't want to take her Adderall either, as she thinks it's making her mood swings worse, and she's probably right! All she is taking right now is Abilify 15mg at bedtime. I'm going to ask the pdoc about putting her on Lamictal. she has never been on a mood stabilizer and we really need to get her more stable before her back surgery in June.

Anyway, that's an update on my girls. I will keep you posted!

Thanks again for all the thoughts and prayers!!

Cyndi

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Response (4.1.1.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-14 10:53:33

Yeah, Brianna gets bored A LOT on the weekends too! Sometimes she handles it okay, other times she is up-my-butt 24/7!! :goofy:

Is there a second hand shop or some type of charity thing (maybe a domestic violence orgination?) you can go to for Tiffani's dress? It won't be the same, I know, but it is better than nothing. And besides no one else will know it isn't brand new!!! Just an idea!

Sounds like the Abilify isn't doing it. Lamictal has done WONDERS for Brianna! We LOVE it!!! :)

Hope your hubby gets better soon! Are you guys giving him a hard time about all the attention he is getting? :sillygrin:

Love, Cheri

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DISCUSSION: Police took son to hosp - please help 2008-04-07 21:58:24 2008-04-07 08:13:02

I am just a mess this morning. I finally had to call the police about my son, who will be 17 this weekend. This is so hard, he doesn't think he is ill, and we haven't been able to sort out medications that will help him. I know he is suffering so much. But the threats and aggression, especially when we are home alone, have just made our lives a nightmare. I have locked myself in the bedroom several times a day over the last week to get away from his aggression and anger. Yesterday he was going to start a fire in the bathroom to burn all our family pictures. He threatened me again if I came anywhwere near him. He has blocked me from leaving rooms and raised his fist at me. The other night he was bullying me, and my husband asked him to walk away and go upstairs. When he refused, my husband got upset and told him to leave me alone and go upstairs or he would drag him upstairs. This brought on an onslaught of threats that he would break our kneecaps with a bat, and slit our throats.

I am a mess. I don't know what else to do. He is in the hospital, but if they don't see these behaviours, what do I do when he comes home? I pray his psychiatrist, who has diagnosed and is treating him for bipolar, will see the severity of this.

Dear God, this is my son and I love him dearly. I am so scared for him.

Debbie

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by kotocat - 2008-04-07 09:35:31

I glad you and your son are safe. His behavior sounds like my child when she was unstable. If this is the first hospitalization I understand your pain. Just know you did the right thing and your both safe while he's recieving the care he needs.

Before he comes home I would recommend you discuss and share a crisis intervention plan with your family or friends. That way if your in the middle of a simular situation again, you might feel like you have more control. I'm just a parent ,having been through something quite simular, sharing something that has been helpful for us.

Wish you the best

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Response (2.)... by dclg@sympatico.ca - 2008-04-07 09:47:27

It's been so hard. He has a child and adolescent psychiatrist that has been taking care of him since last year, and she has expressed that she feels it is bipolar, and had him on lithium last fall. The psych hosp has there doctors observing him since yesterday, and right now they've expressed that they feel he is not sick - just behavioural problems and anger. His doctor assured me she has told them there is much more going on than meets the eye and she recommends he be held for two weeks.

I don't know what the hospital is going to do, as he is now under their care, but if they let him out and say there is no illness, I don't know what I will do. I am afraid to have him home, and he will be out of control. I just pray his doctor can stay involved enough and has enough influence over the hospital. She is very highly regarded, and we live in an area with a world reknowned teaching hospital of which she is held in very high esteem. I pray to God they he has an episode at the hospital and they see how irrational he becomes.

Please pray for us.

Debbie

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Response (2.1.)... by monica4patience - 2008-04-07 10:33:09

I know how guilty you feel when you say that you pray he has an episode at the hospital. I too wanted that to happen. I wanted the doctors to see what we were seeing at home. It did finally happen there, actually several times over the 17 days DS15 was in hospital. He actually ended up in the time-out room. At least now we have documentation of what can happen and comfirmation of dx.

Best wishes,

Monica

DS15, adoptee, 10th grade at private school for kids with learning differences

BP, TS, ADHD, OCD, anxiety, delayed puberty, trichotillomania, PDD-NOS

Lithium 1500mg; Abilify 20mg; Seroquel 700mg; Levothyroxine 50mcg / 75mcg; Omega 3 2000mg; plays guitar, drums, keyboard; songwriter; hockey; loves playing w/ little kids.

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Response (3.)... by fizbin - 2008-04-07 11:05:20

You had to protect yourself and get your son into care as he is clearly very unstable. I am sure that his pdoc will speak to the attending pdoc at the hospital and make them aware of the problems you are having with him and that it is not just anger and behavior.

Don't feel guilty at all you did this to help not to hurt him.

Take care and keep us posted

Eileen

The Balanced Mind Foundation Parent to Parent Volunteer

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Response (4.)... by mamaw-wi - 2008-04-07 12:04:21

Sorry you are having such a rough time. We are having the same problems with a 13 yr old girl who is presently unstable. I am currently putting 200 miles per day driving her to partial hospitalization, after 5 hospitalizations since Dec 1. Another med change and we wait again for something to work. But the illness aside she is a beautiful, intelligent and empathetic child and we must keep our eyes on that. Things will get better and sometimes I think we have been placed in this time and space because we DO have the strength to deal with it and that is what these children need so much. Hang in there --- you and your son are in my thoughts and prayers. Keep us posted!

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Response (5.)... by andyl - 2008-04-07 13:51:33

I will also keep you and your ds in my prayers! Please heed the advice to have a safety plan in place. Now that the police have been involved hopefully they would respond quickly if needed. We all love our kids, but we also have the right to live peacefully and safely in our homes. I don't think we are doing them any favors by not getting proper help as soon as possible. It can take awhile for the correct meds and dosages to be put into place. I wish you well! Let us know how it goes.

Andrea

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Response (6.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-04-07 17:20:19

I'm so sorry you are going through this. Hopefully this will be what it takes to get him help and get him stable. I will keep you and your family in my prayers!

Cyndi

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Response (7.)... by todboat@aol.com - 2008-04-07 18:49:37

i am sorry to hear you are going through this but i do think you did the right thing. just a month ago we pur my son, 8, in the phos.I too was afraid he " hold it together " and they douwldnt see how sick he is---he didnt even make it 24 hrs before he got put in isolation... he kept tearing off his wrist bands and did alot of cussing and shouting, all of which they dont put up with. after 3 days of this he got with the program and with the help of med adjustments he came out doing wonderful. he is so much better than before. I know it is hard- especially the first few days. i did alot of praying and God is good- He brought us through it.

will keep you in prayer.

(((((hugs)))))

Lori

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Response (8.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-07 21:18:27

you mentioned lithium, is he on anything else? I doubt the hospital would send him home disagreeing with your pdocs dx. However, they may very well send him home saying he is no longer a danger to you or himself.

I'm curius if they'll try a different medication while he is in.

PS..I had to call the police on my son last week (16) first time after many years of threatening. The hospital didn't admit him but my son is considered somewhat stable. He had threatened to kill himself and locked himself in the bathroom. My son kept saying "I can't believe you called the police on me!" I had many times over the years threatened to call them but never did. This is the first time he locked the door and I couldn't take the chance and I told him that if he ever threatens me or himself I'll call the police again. I think it really had such an effect on him.

He knows I mean business. Maybe your son will realize that you cannot live like this any longer and will comply just to be able to come home. I hope no Doctor would ever say "there's nothing wrong with you" he's been brought to the hospital by the police, of course there is something wrong with him!

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Response (9.)... by kalee - 2008-04-07 21:58:24

My heart and soul goes out to you. I am scared of my 3 y/o - I can't imagine the fear of basically a grown child. It's sure to come... You and your family are in my prayers.

Blessings,

Kathy

Co-Mod VY3 w/Amanda, Christina & Lisa

dandkcraig@hotmail.com , Arkansas

Cody 3, DX: Mood Disorder NOS, SID

Current Meds: Melatonin 3 mg. Fish Oil 1000 mg

Therapeutic Day Program, 180 min/wk OT

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DISCUSSION: Another first 2008-04-08 21:55:26 2008-04-08 11:18:18

I went to wake up Taryn this morning for school and found her in the bathroom, fully dressed, hair fixed, shoes on, ready for school. WOW! It was still 30 minutes til the bus. I used to have to spend 15 minutes just to get her out of bed. The last time she road the bus (before phosp and then Meridell), it took me and DH to drag her to the bus, I had to get on for 10-15 minutes to calm her before they could leave, as she was raging.

I don't know who this kid is that they sent home with me, but I hope she stays for a long, long time!!

:ooh:

Cyndi

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by kotocat - 2008-04-08 13:53:39

I'm envious, every morning is a battle here! But seriously, I'm am happy for you to have read she is doing so well. There must be alot of transitional changes involved with returning home.

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Response (2.)... by gorman@cybermesa.com - 2008-04-08 21:55:26

Hi Cyndi

I'm so happy to hear that so far, so good! Or even better! I'm thrilled for you that the transition is going smoothly. I hope I have the same experience, because it looks for sure that I'll be bringing Dane home from Meridell Saturday. I'm pissed at my insurance, or more than pissed, but at this point I'm all out of fight. We've exhausted the options we had and they have beat us into submission. Tomorrow I'll find out what the fabulous outpatient options are that they have lined up for him upon release. I'm sure it will be a joke. Luckily, I'm not jaded. :P

Here's to having Taryn home and in better shape than she left in!

Erika

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DISCUSSION: Hosp - 1/2 hour session-claims abuse-HELP 2008-04-13 10:56:11 2008-04-08 14:02:25

I can't believe this. My son just phoned from the hospital and said he saw the psychiatrist for 1/2 hour witha social worker, and that he doesn't have BP - they questioned him about abuse in the home. This is insane. None of our kids has ever been hit, spanked, or physically manhandled in any way. If there was conflict with my son, on two occasions my husband restrained him, but NEVER hit him. Yes, living with a child with BP is sometimes like a warzone, because the child is moody and angry and demanding. The doctor seems to have told my son that it just sounds like we have a lot of fighting in our home.

They told him that they could take him away from us.

What the hell is going on here???? His psychiatrist for ONE YEAR is well aware of the circumstances. and this other woman after 1/2 hour discards the BP diagnoses and says abuse?????

My H and I are supposed to go to the hospital tomorrow to meet with them. I am SO upset..... What if they take my kids away??????????

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by fizbin - 2008-04-08 21:12:52

I don't blame you for being upset. Anyone would be in your situation. But you must try to stay calm and not give them any ammunition. When you go into the meeting tell them you are upset and that they should contact his regular pdoc who dx'd him. They obviously don't have expertise in BP in kids or they'd not have said what they said. They cannot take your kids away without an investigation and it doesn't sound like there is ANY evidence to support one. So go in there knowing you are in the right and demand that they speak to his regular doctor.

You will be in my thoughts and prayers please keep us posted on how this turns out.

Eileen

The Balanced Mind Foundation Parent to Parent Volunteer

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Response (2.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-08 22:22:27

Is this information all coming from your son? Maybe this is just his perception of the meeting.

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Response (3.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-09 13:58:21

with the pdoc at the hospital? I'm curious how it went and if your son heard everything correctly. I hope all is well.

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Response (4.)... by dclg@sympatico.ca - 2008-04-09 21:33:27

They changed the appointment until Friday. I still have not spoken with the pdoc even ONCE since his being admitted. Phone calls have gone unanswered. I have spoken only with my son, who has quoted things that I don't believe he would have come up with himself. I have spoken with my sons original pdoc for the past year, and she absolutely feels he has a mood disorder and does not understand why this doctor has not called me yet.

Unfortunately, my son has made this a contest, and he feels he has won. He tells me that when he comes home I will have to beg his forgiveness for trying to make people believe he was ill.

This is truly unbelievable. To come to a diagnosis solely by meeting with someone for two 1/2 sessions, and gather no history or discussing anything with the family is appalling. It is saying that they think as a mother I would TRY to declare my son mentally ill when he is well. What kind of evil is that?

IN sessions with his own doctor, my son has admitted feeling rage for not reason at unforeseen times. He has admitted that he used Pot to self medicate to deal with his rage. He admitted that he would become depressed and not go out, or have any interests or hobbies, or friends. He admitted that he stays up all night pacing some nights because he can't stop. He admitted that he knew something was wrong.

Now, he has denied all of this to the new doctor. He has told her he did not do or say these things. According to my son, the hospital has said they have no idea why his doctor diagnosed BP, and that he simply has anger management issues.

I truly cannot believe that this has happened, because it will now be impossible to attain any help whatsoever in dealing with his illness. He will absolutely not comply with anything. And I know in my heart that five or ten years from now, when it is evident to everyone that he does have this illness, it will mean very little that this doctor is wrong, because his life will be in tatters. It means that there will have to be another extreme episode to try to get him help.

I'm just at a loss.

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Response (4.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-09 22:57:38

His regular pdoc should call the hosp pdoc!!! I would call immediately and ask him to do so!! Otherwise, can you transfer him to another hospital?

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Response (5.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-10 06:55:09

This must be sooo frustrating. First of all, I can't imagine why they would be keeping him if "there is nothing wrong with him". Second, you are his guardian and still have control as to what happens to him. (he is 17?) Perhaps if you can't speak to the pdoc at the hospital till tommorow, call and ask to speak to the nurse for some reassurance. I cannot imagine a Doctor telling a patient there is nothing wrong with you and then keeping him in the hospital for a week.

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Response (6.)... by dclg@sympatico.ca - 2008-04-10 08:56:47

My son's pdoc is away until Monday. To complicate things, she is going to be off for a year on maternity leave at the end of May. According to my son, the pdoc at the hospital has told him she will "deal with his mother and the other doctor".

This is a nightmare. The point of this was to stabilize him. Supposedly they have kept him all week to ensure that it was "safe" for him to come home.

This is a like beginning the same battle I had when his dad became ill. My ex-husband and I were together 12 years, married 8. We had a great life, ran a very successful business together, had two beautiful babies. When my kids were 4 and 2, my ex-husbands behaviour became very bizarre. It started with his being awake at night til all hours. Intermittent explosions of temper, and suspicions about the neighbours came next. This was offset by periods of incredible happiness, great warmth and love for everyone. He became addicted to painkillers at this time. I did not know the extent of this addiction, but when it became apparent, I threatened to leave if he didn't get help.

The drug counsellor felt there was a medical problem driving the addiction, and sent him to a doctor - neuropathologist named George Davidson. This man had been a neurosurgeon in England, and came to Canada to work in mental health and addictions. I found out later he had had a bout with mental illness (paranoia) himself, which had been the catalyst in his career change.

Anyway, he decided my husband had ADD. At this time, it was the "latest" that adults could have ADD (early 90's). This doctor prescribed him ritalin. My husband liked it. It made him high. This doctor, who was regarded as a pioneer in treating adult ADD, felt that adults with ADD needed to find their own dosage level, and should be given the freedom to take as much as they needed to find the right dosage. Ultimately, my husband was prescribed 200-300 mg per day of Ritalin.

You can imagine the impact on him. He became rampantly psychotic. He began exhibiting pathological jealousy toward me, he began believing the neighbours were Russian spies, and he started secretly stockpiling guns for when he had to protect himself.

I fought the doctor on the Ritalin - he told us that Ritalin did not cause this. Psychiatrists (two) did consults and after speaking with my husband and I each privately, determined the problem was a "marital" problem, not a mental problem. My husband denied the paranoia, and was very good at hiding his illness. I was told at the time that if he were ill, he would be unable to hide his illness at will. He was very verbally articulate and convinced everyone I was having multiple affairs and stealing money from our business. This was interspersed, once again, with periods of affection, love, and pleas for me to help him because he knew he was ill.

The only other person who he shared his erratic thoughts with was his mother, and she did not have the strength to support me with the doctors. She would cry, and tell me she could not "betray" her son. She enabled him.

Ultimately, I took the kids, and left everything. I moved to another city and built a new life, started a new career, eventually a new relationship and studied toward my MBA. We had no contact with my ex-husband for over 10 years.

Two years ago my son sought him out. I was told by therapists to allow this as my son, at 15, would have to appease his need to understand what happened to his father. It was found that my ex-husband was living with his mother, unable to work for several years, and is rampantly psychotic. He is not violent, but believes the newspaper has secret messages for him, the TV sends messages, the goverment is plotting against him, etc., and is no longer able to hide his illness.

15 years later, my belief that he was sick was proven right, but it doesn't matter now - it is too late. My ex-husband, by the way, still does not believe there is a

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Response (7.)... by dclg@sympatico.ca - 2008-04-10 09:14:01

(sorry so long.. got cut off)

My exhusband does not believe there is anything wrong with him.

I see many similarities in my son's behaviour and it terrifies me. His pdoc sees it as well, but she will be gone soon. I have to talk to her next week when she is back - I don't know what to do now....

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Response (8.)... by william.neff.powell@comcast.net - 2008-04-10 10:00:34

I'm new to BP with my DD, about 3 weeks into it.. But, I can see now that I can not give over my daughters care to the drs.

When my daughter had her first break I went with her into Behavior Unit and stuck around for the first interview... She was asked why she was there... She threw her hands up and said, "beats me". Then the Nurse looked at me and said "Dad?". I then explained in detail the scenario that led to her stay.Long story short, diagnosed Bi-polar.

She was released after about 6 days, no instructions for us, "she's ready to go". They scheduled outpatient visits. Daughter went on her own, asked her how it went. "None of your business". In retrospect I should have gotten right on the phone, but, I thought, in error, that this new counsler would have gotten a full brief on the situation.

Right now she is manic and not at home, called counsler and explained the situation, counsler had no idea about the mania and thought DD was just depressed.

My take home on this story is that I am going to insist on at least 5 minutes with any new counsler she visits... I'm paying for it, I believe I'm entitled to it. She does not have to discuss my DD's case, but I am going to insist she hears my side first. I will also be armed with police reports and diagnosis (facts).

Yesterday my daughter told me my wife was abusing her... I immediately told her she was way off base. Told her she was "Connecting the dots" again with fuzzy logic as she was in her first break. I feel my daughter is so deep into this denial she needs a story to spin for her head and for her counselor. I remember my bi-polar boss used to spend hours in a cryptic astrology book trying to connect the dots. He said he controlled his bi-polar with Cosmo-Biology.... BS, he did not...

I have found that many f'd up people go into the mental health professions, I am suspect of every one of them... My mother lives next to a counselor, who, gets drunk every night and has horrible loud fights that my mother hears in her house through closed windows... My wifes a nurse of 15 years, she knows not all doctors are winners and always picks good ones for our care... I'm wandering... You know the joke, what do they call the worst doctor in med school after graduation? ..... Doctor

Anyway, lets keep it together, take a pause while we're on the roller coaster and remember to make sensible decisions. Lets not get caught up in the dot connecting. When things seem sureel,thats when we need clarity. We need to be strong and steadfast, for us, and our bpkids.

Regards,

Bipolarparent

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Response (8.1.)... by pumpkin - 2008-04-10 10:22:38

of your minor child (under 18) and you should call the doctors on duty at that hospital and go up the ladder if necessary to demand some help for your child. You should do this diplomatically and the less emotion the better. Try to think of this as a business meeting and be assertive. Your child needs help and you need a good doctor who understands bp. Your dr is away I understand, but can you get a hold of her for another drs name near you to help you? I always make sure I can get a hold of my doc, she has been great about giving me her cell phone number that I can call anytime. This illness is very serious and has many faces (can easily be masked to others). Many docs are ignorant, but there are some who get it. You have the find the ones who get it to help you. I have been dealing w/hospitals and docs for 3 years now and understand it is up to me to manage my child's care. We have to keep moving through turbulent waters to save our children. Your situation is not uncommon as I've read these stories many times on our message boards. You can call your local NAMI chapter for help as well. Hang in there and keep us posted.

Nancy in MD

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Response (9.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-10 10:54:20

If you find that the Doctor is believing that your son is fine, I would insist on a second opinion. As far as his pdoc, I'm assuming if she is taking a year off for medical leave she must be referring her patients to someone. I would make an appointment with that person and go and talk to them asap. If this pdoc takes a vacation before leaving for a year she is obviously not focused on her practice. No sense in wasting any time with her.

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Response (10.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-12 16:07:57

the hospital go?

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Response (11.)... by dclg@sympatico.ca - 2008-04-12 21:37:12

Well, it was very very long. It started out poorly - I had brought my dictaphone to record everything so there would be no uncertainty afterward, and they were put off - no one had ever done that before. I had also produced a six page document of all of my son't health history, family history, medication history, and episodes.

My son was very upset and had been in for six days, on a floor for acute psychiatric care, next to a man who had tried to commit suicide 7 times by gouging out his wrists, (causing him to lose most of his hand, which he continually showed my son...)

My son was very much determined to prove that there was nothing wrong with him, and that I was just trying to dope him up to get rid of him. He had told the doctor that he and his stepfather didn't get along, and we just wanted to put him away in a mental hospital. For some strange reason, she seemed to have bought it. He had not answered any questions from her truthfully (about if he ever was depressed, or overly happy, or got angry and lost control, etc.)

When we began, she started by telling me that there is absolutely no way he has bipolar, or as she said my own pdoc called it, "emerging bipolar". I tried to tell her of the incidences that had occurred over the past year, and she kept interrupting me. She blamed everything on behavioural problems and said he had a personality disorder and ODD. No biological BP.

I discussed my understanding that the field of pediatric bipolar is relatively new, and that BP is said to present differently in kids. She said that was controversial. I said that I was told that the predominant characteristic of ped. BP was the rages, and she said that was controversial. I told her of several evidently manic periods in great detail, and she said she does not believe in diagnosing someone with "emerging" bipolar, and would not place a diagnosis on someone unless she saw them herself in the manic state. Therefore, I am to bring him in to the Psch. Emerg. dept. when he is in a manic state. We spoke of the family history in dad and grandpa, and she said that she had no way of knowing what they suffered from.

She repeated that it was ODD and a personality disorder - and then she covered her a** by saying "that's not to say that bipolar may not occur some time in the future, but I don't see it right now".

Anyway, when we drove home, my son was very upset that I had put him in a mental ward for six days, and leapt out of our moving vehicle into a busy area of the city. I looked for him for an hour, and finally when he realized he had no where to go, I found him and convinced him to get back into the van. He thought I was going to take him back to the hospital, but I drove to a restaurant and we had dinner and talked.

It was very hostile at first, but I talked of how the statistics on suicide in bipolar suffers are between 15-25% if untreated, and that early treatment before episodes become frequent is said to slow down and even stop the progression. I expressed to him how much I would not let him end up like his father - no matter how much he hated me, I had to admit him to make him well because I love him more than life.

He then began to tell me that he had lied to the doctor. That he was worried he did have it, that he did feel strange sometimes and felt better on the medication. That he knows that there are times when everything goes out of control.

He wants to go back to the hospital on Monday with me to talk to the doctor about it.

It is his 17th birthday today, and we went out for dinner. I could tell he was not himself - he became very suspicious of the people in the restaurant around us, looking at everyone suspiciously. After dinner he told me that for some reason when we went into the restaurant he felt really angry, and as we walked to our table, he was looking around him and if anyone had bumped into him, he was going to slug them. Afterward, it passed, but he didn'

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Response (12.)... by dclg@sympatico.ca - 2008-04-12 21:42:15

(sorry - too long...)

Afterward it passed, but it scared him and he didn't know what was going on. Then he just wanted to go home.

I'm really worried about him, and I will fight whatever fight I have to in order to get him the care I know he needs so he can have a good life.

God, what a week....

Thank you all for your support this week, I was going out of my mind!! Checking for responses from all of you kept me sane.

Debbie

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Response (13.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-12 22:33:12

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Response (14.)... by dclg@sympatico.ca - 2008-04-13 09:53:58

well, he is on valproic acid - very low dosage which was meant to build up, but he is refusing. We had another set back last night. His sister had a friend sleep over. My son had been calm all evening, but when his sister came in with her friend, she asked him if he had a wristband on from the hospital. He didn't want her friend to know he was in the hospital. He flew into a rage, he was so upset that everyone was talking about him behind his back about being in a mental hospital, and that when he goes to school on Monday, they will all be whispering. Then he said he is not taking any more medication because if he hadn't been taking the medication, he wouldn't have been calm and everyone would have been too scared of him to say anything about the hospital. The way his mind is working.....

Then late last night, he calmed, and I sat with him on the couch. It was his birthday, and he had no calls from friends at all. He was so incredibly lonely. He knows my childhood was very difficult and that I was on my own at 14 and raised my younger sister on my own. He knows that I had to watch his father get sick and had to raise both him and his sister alone. And he asked me, with everything sh***y that had happened in my life, how could I still believe that there is anything good in this world.

And I told him that the day he was born, having this little being with a completely blank slate, who shone with pure innocence and love and trust, whose very soul shone through in his eyes when he smiled, and whose whole body literally shook with happiness when he was excited, I knew that this overwhelming love was what life was all about. It was goodness larger than any bad could ever be.

He smiled a bit, but then he said he couldn't talk anymore, and could I just leave him alone for a while.

As I type this, he is still asleep. His sister and her girlfriend are still asleep, and my husband is gone coaching football. I have no idea what today will bring. He did not take the meds last night. He will not interact well with other kids in the house. I have a feeling he will just hide out in his bedroom today.

In the hospitals determination that he is not bipolar, they have said that they notified their emerg dept that if he is brought in again it is not a mental health issue - it is a criminal issue.

I know in my very soul that this is not true. I'm praying today will be calm, and tomorrow I can reach his own psychiatrist.

Any thoughts on all of this would be VERY VERY appreciated!!!!!!!

Debbie

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Response (14.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-13 10:56:11

I'd find a different hospital!! And he obviously needs different meds!! I also wouldn't expect him to return to school. The whole reason why you hospitalized him in the first place is cuz he was unstable and the REAL issue was never addressed. He sounds as unstable now as he was BEFORE the hospital. If it was me I'd find a different hospital and admit (after talking with him about it). Or at the very least keep him home and meet with your regular pdoc tomorrow about all that has gone on.

He also needs to start accepting himself and his disorder and take charge of it himself. If he doesn't want you doing these things then HE needs to! He told you in the restaraunt his TRUE feelings and thoughts- well, he needs to step up and take care of himself. You are there for guidance, comfort, and support, But ONLY he knows how he REALLY feels and what his thoughts REALLY are and only he knows what will really help him. If you can get him to listen maybe it will make him feel grown up and empower him to take charge of his symptoms. Keeping the symptoms manageable is the key to happiness and success. He is 17 and he needs to face this head on and deal with it so he doesn't end up like his dad.

Sorry if I sound harsh, not that I mean to, but just saying it like I HAD to say it to my 14 yo daughter. She is now IN CHARGE and her last hospitalization was her choice. She is doing MUCH better now since I have stepped back and put her disorder in her hands. There are days she needs extra hugs and validation, but they are much fewer and when she feels like crap (for whatever reason) she just lets us know from the get go so we cut her a little slack on those days. It has saved our family LOADS of stress and fighting since she has owned her disorder and it allows her to feel more responsible and grown up.

I wish you BOTH strength and optimism!!!

Hugs, Love, & Peace,

Cheri

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Response (15.)... by boomom - 2008-04-13 10:46:36

You have a lot on your plate. Why don't you film his behaviors at home or when you're out and then present them to the docs? You could also record what he's saying when he's saying it if you don't want to do a video recording.

Your pdoc should be supporting you more as well in my opinion. I'd make a call and get him and the pdoc from the hospital in the same room.

Peace,

Alyson

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DISCUSSION: BI-Polar 20 Year old diagnosed 2 weeks again, just left home yesterday... 2008-04-11 10:30:33 2008-04-09 09:04:12

Hello,

Daughter had a break about 2 weeks ago, threw away laptop, purse, cell phone, picked up by police. Had to take her out of college, lost $6000 in tuition....

About 1 week in behavior hospital, diagnosed bi-polar. On meds. Got her home, pulled her out of college and her apartment.Things were going fairly well, she was in denial about being bi-polar though... Said throwing things away was something she meant to do....

Last night at 1:00 am she sneaks out of the house and takes her car (really my car, my insurance, my gas) and goes to apartment (leaves us a note).

What should I do now? I want to take her keys away and take her back home... We do not want to have her at the apartment with her roommates that are still in school and working hard. They don't need this from my daughter... Do I cut off all money? Take the car? Or, do I let her live like a trust funder with money we really don't have....

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by kotocat - 2008-04-09 10:17:25

If your new to the site, Welcome. I wish I could answer your questions but my children are teens and we haven't dealt with the same issues. I've found alot support thru this site and it has offered much advise towards solving dilemmas. Even though every child is unique sometimes their behaviors are quite simular.

Sounds has if your daughter is in denial. My daughter is in and out of that stage. It has only been two weeks for yours and after all I have found this diagnosis, "can be a big pill to swallow" . In my opinion, safety comes first and foremost. I know the medications we use can take several weeks to activate properly. Its hard when your dreams for your child is put in the "on hold' mode.

Good luck

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Response (2.)... by fizbin - 2008-04-09 10:21:40

I can recommend a book that might help. It's called I'm Not Sick I Don't Need Help by Xavier Amador. It should have some good advice for you. Is she taking her meds or has she refused to do that?

I'd make it clear to her that she needs to come home she cannot live in the apartment if she is out of school. I'd not let her "live like a trust fund kid". You might want to contact your local branch of NAMI which you can find at http://www.nami.org. They might have some support groups both you and your daughter can attend.

Eileen

The Balanced Mind Foundation Parent to Parent Volunteer

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Response (3.)... by william.neff.powell@comcast.net - 2008-04-09 11:06:23

She is on her meds thankfully... Though, they did lighten them up a bit because of sore throat, but her sleeping was affected.

Thanks for the book advice...

I have a call into a pdoc for my wife and I.

Just called the school and started the official withdrawel process. It is tough when she is 20, many of you on this list are dealing with children that you have rights over... We have no rights... We can pay for the healthcare but can't be involved in the decisions...

The Dean said she should not be on the campus, so that is a plus for me in my attempts to get her home. But, I did tell her three roommates that I would continue to pay the 1/4 rent, which also puts me in a tough position because it gives my daughter an out... We are not tough parents... She is a junior in College and was a 3.5 student. We let her do her own thing...

I did work for a bi-polar boss for 10 years (non-medicated) so I have some exposure to it.... Yes, this is a very large pill to swallow.

My goals are to get her back in school for fall semester. But, based on last nights behavior I don't know which end is up....

Also concerned that my company will feel that since we pulled her out of school she is no longer covered by the healthcare....... Thinking about not tuning them into her medical leave.

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Response (4.)... by fizbin - 2008-04-09 12:27:44

Glad to hear she is on her meds. It is hard when you don't have control. Perhaps you can get your daughter to sign a waiver letting you talk to her doctor and him to you. That might ease your mind a bit. Hang in there she's only been diagnosed for a couple of weeks it takes time to get well and I am sure you will see some results soon.

We also have online support groups for families you might like to participate in one. To sign up just click on support groups to the left side of the page. We have a couple of groups for parents with children your daughters age.

Eileen

The Balanced Mind Foundation Parent to Parent Volunteer

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Response (5.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-09 13:55:27

You have described every teen parent's nightmare. My son is 16 and I am very concerned about the future. I know that when he is not stable there is no way we are going to be able to tell him what to do. I can say that I feel for her. This must be such a hard pill to swallow when she was on the road to success and everything seems to be crashing.

I'm assuming that the apartment is on campus? In that case the option may not be yours. Maybe you can bargain with her that if she complies and takes her meds and agrees to therapy you can let her use the car, this way she hasn't completely regressed from being an adult.

I would agree that a support group for her with other peers that have been through this may be just what she needs. She is probably feeling very overwhelmed at all this.

Will her pdoc speak with you? Maybe the pdoc could recommend a therapist and that could be her "schooling" for now. Maybe if she complies with everything she could stay in the apartment after she proves herself. Please keep us posted on how it all goes, I for one need to prepare myself for the over 18 world!

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Response (6.)... by william.neff.powell@comcast.net - 2008-04-09 18:38:28

Went to her apartment, stopped off at the school first to get her medical leave papers... Her apartment is off campus. She was in bed, her roommate answered the door...

Talked to her calmly, said she should not have snuck off in the middle of the night, she said she had to... Brought her the forms, she would not sign them, said she was not disabled. Told her she was throwing away the education she fought for and loved and that she would lose her health care if she did not sign... She did not care.

Told her she was going to be a burden on her roommates, she yelled out to her roommates "I'm not going to be a burden am I?" They replied in unison "No Bonnie". I said I'm taking the car, you are manic and I can't have you driving the car. She gave me the keys. I went out and lectured the roommates. (I did not yell but I was firm) Told them they were not healthcare professionals and they had no idea how ill Bonnie really was. Instructed them that if and when Bonnie went manic that they were to call the police. I think I scared them plenty, good! Talked to the mother of one of them because she is a friend, she is going to try to talk some sense into roomate.

Since then we talked to her counsler assigned after the hospital stay. Therapist had no history of her manic behavior so my daughter was snowing her.... So pissed there was not propper hand off from p-doc to counsler.

Going to see our own pdoc for bi-polar 101 tomorrow at 3.

Took the car, hated to do it, but she was in no condition to drive. She can get her food, other roommates don't have a car. One less thing for me to worry about.

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Response (7.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-09 19:23:36

Eventually her roomates will witness her behavior and be supportive in helping her get the treatment she needs.

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Response (8.)... by jistac - 2008-04-09 21:20:00

I too have a 20 year old daughter who had to leave college last year due to Bipolar. We also dealt with her being in denial of her condition at various points. One thing that helped us is that what goes up must come down and eventually she entered into such a deep dark depression that she admitted herself into a hospital program.

Throughout the whole time our pdoc coached us on what to say and how to talk to her. He had us only bring up one concept at a time and each time we sat down with her we had a very specific goal that we hoped to achieve.

I am glad you are going to meet a pdoc for Bipolar 101. I hope he/she is very helpful. Things will get better. But it takes time. Even once we got our daughter working with our other son's pdoc, who is very experienced. It took us a good 9 months to get our daughter really solidly stable.

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Response (9.)... by william.neff.powell@comcast.net - 2008-04-10 10:39:29

OMG...

DONT TRUST THE SYSTEM!!!!

Found out today the pdoc never got the med levels from Saturday blood test.... We had to track down levels, they indicated meds were un-theraputic.

Pdoc also stated that counselor was given complete history of mania and obviously does not know how to read!

Apologies everywhere! But the facts are that my daughter is now living away from us and we can't directly care for her.... She blew a great part time job at a YMCA where she could ease back into responsibility and get some free gym exercise to boot... (Maybe she can get that back) Just hoping her roommates will get tired of her soon...

So, take aways: 1) Don't assume dr's are communicating... Enforce their process, if they say they need a test, your next question is, when will you get the results? When will you call me with the results? If I don't hear from you where can I contact you? 2) Always attempt to attend a newly diagnosed Bi-polars initial session with a counselor, ask for 5 minutes and state the facts as you see them.

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Response (10.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-10 10:44:36

Unfortunately, I have learned the hard way. The lab fax's the result to the wrong number or they didn't see STAT on it or the pdoc forgot to tell you he'd be away for a week. Been there, done that.

I know our YMCA is very understanding about kids issues. My son has been working at ours for the past two years on and off. As long as he is not causing any trouble they are willing to work with him.

Maybe her meds haven't totally kicked in yet. Is you daughter going to the counselor consistently? Maybe you could have a family meeting.

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Response (11.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-10 10:46:12

I guess I would be willing to negotiate with her about the apartment and the car if she would be willing to focus on getting better. Sometimes you have to do what you can to bribe them into it.

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Response (12.)... by william.neff.powell@comcast.net - 2008-04-10 11:01:24

DD went to counselor twice since release, but, was receiving mixed message because counselor did not read the report from pdoc!!!! Counselor was buying DD's story that she was just depressed. So, we need to do damage control.

Wife is meeting with counselor and DD on Monday.

Yes, good idea about negotiating on apartment, but car is out. Car is in my name and wifes name, which I've been told is not a good thing legally... Plus, insurance is in my name and I pay for it... After manic flight I would feel better if she did not have the car, plus it is 1990 accord in sad shape... Don't want her manic and broken down by the side of the road. Roommates have been doing fine with out a car. Apartment is 5 miles from my work, about 15 minutes, I can take her grocery shopping. Maybe if she wants the car she can have it, but she will need to get her own insurance and get it titled in her name...

If I'm going to pay for an apartment I want to move her closer to home, she is not in a great section of town...

No concrete decisions until my meeting with our pdoc (wife and I). I don't like to re-invent the wheel.

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Response (13.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-10 12:03:44

I think it's great that she is willing to go with your wife on Monday. That alone is progress. I'm sure she is frightened and will come around to excepting your help. Good luck.

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Response (14.)... by william.neff.powell@comcast.net - 2008-04-10 19:06:41

My wife and I had our meeting with our pdoc. She was very good. Told her the whole story and based on our information she's convinced daughter is bi-polar. No doubt in my mind, just nice that pdoc confirmed it. (Second opinion)

She wants us to attempt to work with DD's counselor if the counselor is willing to formulate suggestions to get daughter home. Does not want us to cut off all $$$ but also does not want to give her excess $$$... (already doing that). Agreed car should go.

Wife met with DD today and we agreed nothing but fluff talk, weather, etc... Nothing heavy. There meeting was pleasant which was good because yesterday my wife was accused of being abusive.... (absolutely untrue)

My sister is coming into town and had planned for a while to take DD out thrift shopping... So, going to dangle that carrot in front of her and tell her I can pick her up after work.. which means she will have to stay weekend. May work, but I'm not optimistic.

Actually, we are cash strapped now. Due to recent tuition payments now gone to the wind, and deductables which will reach maximums, I really don't want to pay excess expenses... Cheaper to have her home... Plus, she was going to work, which would help out... At least car is grounded, that was averaging about $100 a month in excess joyrides....

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Response (14.1.)... by - 2008-04-10 19:57:07

Don't lose financial heart yet...

Holy smokes, I know how you feel about tuition etc. going up in smoke - through no fault of her own, our daughter plowed through our education savings with very little to show for it as she had to drop out of many classes through out the years.

However, silver lining here, this helped her qualify for permanant disability status (I'm sure it has a different name in US we are in Canada) and OMG there are so many unexpected wonderful things that go with this, including medical, dental, benefits while attending post secondary school and tuition grants to attend...she just got it so I am not sure all of what the package includes, but what a total relief...

So, I am sure you are still in crisis mode, but that will pass and there are opportunities to regroup.

Best,

Rebecca

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Response (15.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-10 22:35:30

accomplished a lot in a short period of time! It sounds like you have set up a good support team for her. Good luck.

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Response (16.)... by bipolarparent - 2008-04-11 10:30:33

The carrot has worked, I am picking her up today after work. Though, she told my wife she is better at the apartment.

But, the semester is almost over and everyone will be leaving. I don't want my daughter there and I don't want her there alone.

I'm angry at the doctors, and I'm angry with the roommates. Nobody wants my daughter to be out on her own more than me. I'm just concerned with her safety.

I'm afraid I may have to flex my financial muscle and threaten to break my 1/4 of the lease. I'm paying my 1/4 to help the roommates out while I heal my daughter. If they are going to counter my efforts maybe they should pay the rent. I'm sure their parents will see things my way if they are strapped with some extra rent... Hopefully I won't have to go down that road.

I'm thinking about a compromise if I can't work with my daughter to stay at home. The compromise would be I could take her down to the apartment in the morning on the way to work and pick her up when I'm done, kind of like day care. That way she gets some time away and we have her at home at night which is when most of the bp issues occur.

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DISCUSSION: video games 2008-04-17 19:13:31 2008-04-12 12:17:02

I have this dilemma. my son loves to play video games, his dad got him into it. he's 10. They mostly play war sniper type of stuff. His therapist feels that it should be cut out. My husband is not hearing of it. it's kind of their "thing" as my hubby does not do sports outdoorsy type of stuff. Michael is so good at it, better than my husband and it really boosts his self esteem. There are games that are off limits like grand theft auto and really grotesque type of games. In a rage he has said so and so needs to die and some of his stories involve someone getting killed. My husband feels like it's what boys do. He does get agitated, but that occurs if he does anything for too long that he's really focused on.

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by kalee - 2008-04-12 14:28:59

Please keep in mind this is only my opinion ;) but my 3 y/o says stuff like that and he has never played any games, never seen violence on TV (except Spongebob), etc. 'Our' kiddos are wired differently.

My grown non-bp son played video games (still does) and swears the games have helped him multi-task, etc. IMO, I would put a time limit on gaming since he does get agitated. I guess you would have to decide between the reasons the therapist gives against playing and how you and dh feel about it.

Good Luck!

P.S. Y'all, please don't cyber stalk me :eek:

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Response (1.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-12 15:34:00

Another suggestion is to get the gun games that target ANYTHING but humans. You know like Turoc you hunt dinosaurs. Or the wildlife hunting games. Colton even has a couple where the targets are robots. The air war games still invove shooting too, but you aren't actually aiming at humans. Tell your hubby it will be a new challenge!! Something different, but not de-masculating! :wink:

Cheri

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Response (1.1.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-13 11:10:39

Okay, after last nights party I have learned that Turoc is a dino game, but the players are the dinos? I don't know, something like that. Or at least on multi player you shoot each other! :eyeroll: So after 20 mins we had to hide it! Just thought I'd let you know!!

Cheri

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Response (2.)... by stephanini@comcast.net - 2008-04-12 14:34:37

Now that you mention it, that talk was way before he had any exposure to games, etc. I really don't think it's the source of his statements. Thanks

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Response (3.)... by helpangel - 2008-04-14 23:06:28

My son 23yo has always been into video games. When he was young I thought he was never going to learn how to read. I got him "Nintendo power" magazines when he was 10 yo. He was so determined to beat the games that is how he learned to read. He also use to get frustrated and bang his head or punch walls (he had ADD) my X came into the picture and playing video game became "their thing". X would get the violent games instead of the cartoon fluff games I always bought. I found that when he had video games as a way to get his aggression out it tamed his behavior - he quit punching things & banging his head. It also helped a lot with his hand eye co-ordination and ability to respond.

Nancy

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Response (3.1.)... by mom2nicolas - 2008-04-17 09:01:44

Our therapist said the same thing when my son was having nightmares, but my husband was completely against taking away the video games. I have to admit, I HATE the video games in our house too, but more becuase they have created this obsession with both of my boys and my husband.

So, one thing I do with my 7 year old (bp) is we talk a lot about the difference between reality and imagination/pretend. I'm not sure if your son is capable of distinguishing between reality/pretend, but this has seemed to help my son keep the gaming behavior in the game, rather than talking about killing people in real life. I have to say, the video games are a HUGE motivator in my house, so I'm not sure I could get rid of them completely anyway.

Again, I'm not a fan of video games simply because they don't interest me and bring out the some ugly behaviors even in my husband (lol!) But, my husband argues that is just how boys behave too. I'm glad I'm not a boy!! :smile:

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Response (4.)... by kotocat - 2008-04-17 13:23:35

I must admit, I didn't what my children to be the only ones out of all their friends without the games. So since my husband and I both dislike them, we limited the use of them. Games were used mainly for travel toys or for vacations. That was several years ago and although one occasionally plays, they have seem to have lost interest in them. One thing I have seen in my daughter is she seldom gets agitated and somewhat obsessed when she does play. Both are teens now and I still limit anything violent in the house whether it was a toy gun, book, or video. They think I'm old fashioned, but I strongly feel that violent games can desensitizes children towards violence.

Now every child is different and these are just my opinions. Perhaps since you seem concerned about this, I would ask what the Dr thinks. Maybe that could help guide you in your decision.

Wish you Luck

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Response (4.1.)... by pumpkin - 2008-04-17 19:13:31

We have had the same controversy in my house. I have an 14 yr old non-bp son and a 12 yr old bp son that LOVE video games. I have always hated violent stuff because I do believe they can de-sensitize kids to killing and we have enough violence in our culture. Don't necessarily think it causes the violence, however, if someone has an illness or predisposition, I believe it can encourage the violent behavior. Since my son gets manic and sometimes gets very aggressive, we limit his exposure to it. I also had to fight my hubby on this, but I brought it up at the doctor's and the doc agreed with me that it is not good for our kids. My older son gets to play, but also in moderation. So, that is what we have done. I agree with the poster that said killing non-humans is better!!!

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DISCUSSION: Update from me 2008-04-13 11:32:47 2008-04-09 18:14:57

From Brianna's teachers:

I just wanted to let you know that today Brianna stood up in front of her class, on her own choice, and presented her poster. I did not ask her to do this, she took the initiative to do it and she did a WONDERFUL job! I was very proud of her and thought you would like to know.

Brianna has turned in the quizzes, so it is just the test, and she can take it slow if she needs to. I dont think she will have too much trouble, most of it is written and interrupting feelings, which she is very good at.

Thank you for all your help, Brianna is a very special girl and I notice her opening up more everyday; it is truly a joy to watch.

Brianna had a successful week in World Geography.

YEAH!!!!! :)

On another note....Colton's 12th bday is Saturday and we are having 9, count them-9! boys overnight!!! 3 of which I KNOW are BP (includes Colton) wish me luck!!!! Dad will be at work!

Love to all,

Cheri

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by kotocat - 2008-04-09 20:40:37

You are so brave! Wish you and your son the best. Happy B- Day Colten

Good job Brianna! Its a hard thing getting up in front of the whole class.

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Response (1.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-09 22:54:41

THANK YOU KOTOCAT!!! :)

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Response (2.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-04-09 23:28:05

I am so happy for you about Brianna and colton. Sounds like things are going well. Good luck with the party. I used to have slumber parties at hotels for Tiffani's birthdays (from age 6 to 12). I was never brave enough to do them at home. In the hotels, they can swim, make messes, stay up all night playing games, etc. Those are some of the best memories I have of Tiffani before she got sick. It is those good memories that give me hope for the future!

Cyndi

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Response (2.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-13 11:29:22

Well, we survived!!! :) :) They stayed up until around 4 am it looked like. Tim got home at 5 and everyone was asleep and Harry Potter was half over! :) There was 1 kid that stormed off home (2 blks) but he came back after 15 mins. (He does that anyway when he doesn't get his way when it is just him and Colton). The other BP boy also has ADD and was a little more than I expected, but not too bad. Mostly cussing and getting carried away. Which I think they all do, just not as quickly or as extreme. Anyway, he was REAL good about stopping when I told him to. I don't think they played football as long as Colton wanted to, but not all the kids are as into it as he is! :cool: All in all the party was a FATASTIC success!! YEAH!!! Now to put my house back in order! :ooh: And get ready for Brianna's- the 28th!!

:eek:

Cheri

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DISCUSSION: BP and PDD dx anyone? 2008-04-14 07:05:02 2008-04-11 20:17:05

DS15 (BP, Tourettes, ADHD, OCD, anxiety & delayed puberty) was released from phosp after 17 day stay w/ an added dx of PDD-NOS. I'm trying to learn as much as I can and figure out how that all fits in with my kid. And what does it all mean in terms of treatment?

Anyone else w/ BP and PDD (or any on the autistic spectrum) have any words of wisdom, advice, etc?

Monica

DS15, adoptee, 10th grade at private school for kids with learning differences

BP, TS, ADHD, OCD, anxiety, delayed puberty, trichotillomania, PDD-NOS

Lithium 1500mg; Abilify 10mg; Seroquel 700mg; Depakote ER 1500mg; Levothyroxine 50mcg/75mcg; Omega 3 2000mg; plays guitar, drums, keyboard; songwriter; hockey; loves playing w/ little kids.

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by fizbin - 2008-04-11 22:48:48

My son has a dx of high functioning autism and BP. There are a few places you can go for information one is the Autism Society of America at http://www.autism-society.org/site/PageServer. Another is http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/ an excellent site with much information. As far as advice goes I'd have him formally evaluated by the school district to see if there are any services they can offer him. Typically OT, speech and social skills training are needed. Kids like this have a lot of problems reading social cues and need training in how to do it. You may also want to contact GRASP at http://www.grasp.org/ to see it they are running a local support group near you for your son. They do excellent work and are run by people on the spectrum.

I'd recommend you get Tony Attwood's book The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome it should have plenty of information that applies to your son. You might also like to get the book mentioned on the Oasis site I refer to above. Both books will be helpful.

If you have any more questions or would like to talk about this in greater detail please feel free to email me at egruber@optonline.net

Eileen

The Balanced Mind Foundation Parent to Parent Volunteer

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Response (2.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-12 14:24:24

Over the years a couple of pdocs have dx my son with bipolar and possible PDD nos. I never really agreed with that and as he got older the pdd dx went to the wayside. I definetly think my son has some developmental delays but I don't think it is pdd.

Have you had a neuropsych exam done. That is very thorough and can zero in on any developmental issues.

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Response (2.1.)... by monica4patience - 2008-04-13 14:28:20

I think it's a missing piece to the puzzle. He had a neuropsych exam done in 2002. We've been talking for several years about having it done again since he'd stabilized.

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Response (3.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-04-13 00:19:36

My 13 yr old was diagnosed at age 3 with PDD and then at age 4 with BP. Both diagnoses were confirmed recently at Meridell with her neuropsych testing. Her PDD exhibits itself primarily as social delay, immature behavior, and lack of know what's appropriate and what's not. She prefers playing with kids who are 3-4 yrs younger than her. Her social skill are awful, especially non-verbal skills, like body language, eye contact, etc. As far as treatment, we haven't found much that helps the PDD, other than teaching and modeling appropiate social skills. She is also in a "social skills" class through our local MHMR. They meet a couple times a month and go shopping or to a movie or out to a restuarant. The therapist works with the kids on learning socially appropriate behavior in public. I have found that she responds and learns more in the group than she does for us.

Anyway, I wish you the best. It is a very difficult combination of problems. My DD also has ADHD and anxiety disorder.

Cyndi

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Response (4.)... by carolinamom - 2008-04-13 18:20:08

Wow-how close a comparison to my 14yo ds. I notice your ds also takes thyroxine. Does he also have Hashimoto's autoimmune hypothyroid? My son is going for a developmental diagnosis in a few weeks. We have one pdoc who has suggested Aspergers as reason for sexual misconduct which has never been severe enough for the courts to get involved but nonetheless concerning. Currently in RTC specific for sexually innappropriate behavior. Voiced homicidal ideas...deemed manic...got BP dx and on Depakote, Zyprexa. Has borderline precocious puberty at age 10 and Hashimoto's dx at age 13. Also ADHD, ODD, mild OCD, disorder of written expression. I think the PDD or Aspergers is the reason for his innappropriate behaviors and social skill problems. Really think that someday there will be an autoimmune diagnosis that encompasses all these symptoms--just are too many kids with multiple diagnoses not to be all related to similar causes and Auto-immune etiology seems likely. Will add to the previouse websites for support-----------http://www.wrongplanet.net/--a good place for the kids to go themselves.

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Response (4.1.)... by monica4patience - 2008-04-14 07:05:02

No, he's on thyroid due to reaction from Lithium. I agree that someday there'll be a dx that will cover the whole thing. We came close to that when he was tested for Prader-Willi syndrome. He fit 80% of the criteria but the genetic testing came back 98% negative.

So far I've teased out the following PDD symptoms: egocentrical; phrasing when slightly manic; living in his own world most of the time; obsessive interest in one topic but doesn't take it to the typical Asperger level of knowing everything there is to know about the subject (possible due to lower IQ). He can hold it together for a awhile, but when he is slightly off w/ BP, then the PDD symptoms are more prominent.

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DISCUSSION: PBS Special on medicate dchild 2008-04-10 09:06:42 2008-04-09 22:07:28

Thought some of you might enjoy watching this i did

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/medicatedchild/?campaign=pbshome...

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by kotocat - 2008-04-10 09:06:42

Watched it a while ago. Had diffulty figuring out if it was PRO or CON towards Bipolar and ADHD and their medications.Thought it somewhat fed the controversies facing child Bipolar and the meds that tx it.

Thanks for the informative link

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DISCUSSION: Medication for our children 2008-04-13 12:11:09 2008-04-10 06:59:27

After watching the PBS special on medication I am curious about the number of doctor's who do not believe in psychiatric medications for children who exhibit bipolar behaviors. If they don't believe in bipolar, what is it? and how do they treat their patients who have 3 hour rages and cycling?

Has anyone ever seen a special on these Doctors?

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by kotocat - 2008-04-10 09:32:53

My take on it is this...A good many were taught that Bipolar existed only in the adult population. It is of yet to even be included in the DSM-IV . Until they properly update this, our children will continue to lack the detailed diagnostic criteria that Drs use. They rely on this "guide" to help identify and tx them.

I'm patiently waiting for the revisions. (It's been several years in the making)...I'm waiting...

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Response (1.1.)... by clhteh@aol.com - 2008-04-13 12:11:09

I received an update from NAMI last week talking about the ICD and Dsm codes and a study that has been done on pediatric BP. There IS a group of docs working on this!!!! :)

Cheri

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Response (2.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-10 10:55:54

doing for their patients in the mean time?

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Response (3.)... by kotocat - 2008-04-10 11:25:01

In regards to your question... They are helping us to doubt are parenting skills...On the lighter side... I feel so fortunate to have a great team of Drs in my court.

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DISCUSSION: voices telling her things 2008-04-11 13:45:49 2008-04-10 12:16:01

i have recently posted on here that my 5yr old has been dxd w/adhd and questioned whether or not she is bp. i do have an appt. w/my sons pdoc. for an evaluation on april 29. however recently she has said that the people in her head are telling her to cut our heads off and on other times to throw our heads in the fire. omg!!! what should i think? or do? thanks pam p.s. the pdoc did mention it could be just 5yr old stuff

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by fizbin - 2008-04-10 12:46:14

I'd try to get into the pdoc earlier for an emergency appointment. This doesn't sound like normal five year old stuff to me. Most five year olds do not have violent images like this or hear voices.

Please keep us posted.

Eileen

The Balanced Mind Foundation Parent to Parent Volunteer

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Response (2.)... by michasmom - 2008-04-10 16:08:52

Is your daughter on an antipsychotic? My daughter hears voices as well and the only thing that helps is risperdal. We have tried other meds, but keep coming back to it. I know it is so scary to hear your child say those things. It is the illness, not your child speaking.

Chandra

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Response (2.1.)... by pammypoo - 2008-04-10 16:36:18

no she is not on any antipsychotics. just concerta. she has not been dxd w/ anything other than adhd. thanks pam

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Response (3.)... by synstokes@comcast.net - 2008-04-10 17:05:47

When my now 7yr old ds was 5, he told his sister he was going to cut off her head with a knife. When questioned, he said the voices in his head told him too. Needless to say, I got first his terapist, who he was seeing regularly and then a referral to a pdoc right away. This lead to his first diagnosis of bp. He was perscribed risperdal right after that. Unfortunately, it was another year and a hospitalization later before we finally got the right mix of meds for him. The earlier these kids get the right diagnosis and treatment the better quality of life for everyone. May God Bless you as you journey this road.

Synthia Stokes

Mom to Michael,Age 7

Early Onset Bipolar

Seroquel, Vyvanse, Clonodine, Desmopressin

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Response (3.1.)... by pammypoo - 2008-04-10 17:23:04

thank you for letting me know that, and that is what scares me is not knowing what is going on. my 7yr son bp/adhd did not go through hearing voices. we did however go through hell with him. i guess there are different levels of bp? or do all kids experience different forms, moods, problems? i am sooo confused, and scared!! thanks, pam

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Response (3.1.1.)... by michasmom - 2008-04-10 19:43:39

Pam,

I was told by my dd's pdoc that if they are hearing voices or having hallucinations they may have a harder time finding the right treatment and their case may be more severe. I don't mean to scare you by saying that, it is just what her pdoc said. I think as with any illness, the symptoms can present themselves differently with different people. I hope you are able to get some answers quickly. Just another bit of info to consider, my dd did not begin having psychotic symptoms until she was on a med for adhd. That is what triggered it for her. Often kids with bipolar cannot tolerate meds for adhd.

Chandra

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Response (4.)... by smallmom - 2008-04-10 17:40:05

Pam,

Concerta can cause hallucinations as a side effect. Is there any way you can ask the doctor who prescribed the Concerta to discontinue it to see if the voices disappear? Hallucinations caused by a med do not necessarily mean she has BP. But you need to know for sure by first stopping the Concerta and second getting her into the pdoc as soon as possible. Is there any way you can get on a cancellation list for the pdoc?

Julia in MD

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Response (5.)... by pammypoo - 2008-04-10 18:06:28

yes i am on the cancel list. but i think if i remember right this may have all started before the meds or right around then. but i will talk to the ped. doc. about the concerta, since she is the one that prescribed it. thanks pam

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Response (6.)... by mrslvsdas - 2008-04-10 18:14:28

pam emily heard voices and saw things for about 2 years. still does but rarely.

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Response (7.)... by fizbin - 2008-04-10 21:18:55

Yes the concerta could be the problem I'd speak to the doctor ASAP about it and also mention it to the pdoc when you see them.

Eileen

The Balanced Mind Foundation Parent to Parent Volunteer

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Response (8.)... by andyl - 2008-04-11 11:10:24

I would journal/chart her behaviors as much as possible. Give yourself time to learn about everything. Good luck at the pdoc's and let us know how it goes!

Andrea

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Response (9.)... by pammypoo - 2008-04-11 13:45:49

yes i have started journaling things(which is something i didn't do with my son) but i am keeping track of everything! thank you for all the advice. pam

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DISCUSSION: Feeling sick.... 2008-04-10 22:42:01 2008-04-10 13:29:20

Alright, I'm feeling sick. Just heard from my son again, just had his session with the hospital pdoc. Says they only discussed me. Says she "can't wait to meet me" tomorrow. (boy, runs from me in the hall tho).

She says if I try to put him anywhere else, not to worry, she will call the hospital and talk to them. Says her expert opinion is that our home environment is creating the problems. Boy, without meeting us, without talking to anyone else, without calling his school, and WHILE giving him depakote, she has decided that there is nothing wrong with him.

She states that there are basically only two criteria for BP. That you are suicidal one minute, and giddy/happy the next. She states that there is no range of symptoms, or varying degrees of BP at all. That external stresses do not "activate" episodes - they happen or they don't regardless of the environment around them. That doctors do not consider other family/genetic considerations or history unless they are true "diagnosed" mental illnesses (so if Uncle Joe thought aliens invaded his body, it doesn't count for anything).

My God, I will go to this meeting tomorrow, and this team of hospital staff will be of the opinion that I am some psycopathic mother trying to have her own child committed when he is sane. If this were true, I truly would deserve to be declared unfit. I truly would be an emotionally abusive mother who should be charged with abuse.

I am none of those things. My son already has an incredibly grandiose opinion of himself - this is going to make him truly impossible to live with. I truly feel sick at the thought of having to deal with him after this. I don't know what to do.

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by - 2008-04-10 14:35:07

I am so sorry things are so difficult right now. I know in our early experience (BC) dealing with the system was much more difficult than dealing with an unstable child, so I do understand what you are going through. Unfortunately one has to shake the tree, scrape the barrel and work the system to find the good pdocs - there are so many bad ones out there, and they seem to be in most of the front line positions : (

Why don't you contact this organization http://www.parentsforchildrensmentalhealth.org/ as they are Ontario based, and may be able to help you navigate the system more effectively.

Good Luck!

Rebecca

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Response (2.)... by jamison - 2008-04-10 14:38:25

What a nightmare!

Is there anyway to delay this meeting until you gather documentation of your son's past difficulties and round-up some of the "experts" that have regularly worked with your son, to participate in some manner (attend the meeting, write a letter, participate on speaker phone).

I would not go into the meeting by myself and armed with my own evidence. Can you call the regular p-doc and pay her to come to the meeting? or have her participate in the meeting via speaker phone? Same thing for your son's T-doc. Can you gather any school related documentation of his problems (IEP, FBP, Behavior Notes, etc)?

Could his teacher participate somehow too? I bet this hospital p-doc would likely back down in a hurry, if you could get something like coordinated. The truth is that she has just met your son. She obviously is weak in her understanding of pediatric bipolar or she'd be one step ahead of the child's attempt to triangulate, his possible lies, and his ability to honeymoon while in the p-hospital.

Best Wishes,

Jamison

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Response (3.)... by michasmom - 2008-04-10 16:14:51

As I have read your posts, a question keeps coming to my mind: Are you only hearing this from your son? If so, is he credible and should you believe him? I only ask this because it seems that your son is very bright and manipulative. Maybe he is playing both sides? Just a thought.

I would gather all of the information you can get from prior docs and bring it. Hopefully the hosp staff will be open to your input.

Also, in my opinion, I would look into other places for your son to be rather than in your home. He does not sound like a safe person to be around right now. Especially if you have younger children. If you have a game plan in place for him, you may not feel so trapped. This is only a suggestion.

Chandra

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Response (4.)... by rnmomo2@yahoo.com - 2008-04-10 20:16:32

I had a similar experience last year until they finally decided to call the therapist we had been working with for almost a year. By the time we left, they said that we were a nice family and he was a great kid. They didn't start meds and he bottomed out once he was home, but we found a new pdoc and he straightened out over a couple of months. Encourage them to call anyone that you have worked with in the profession, and remain calm and reserved when you speak with them.

Good Luck,

Bonnie

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Response (5.)... by bigbird - 2008-04-10 22:42:01

this straight from the pdocs mouth. You sound very patient because I would have been having a fit if noone would talk to me at the hospital. How can they be prescribing Depakote if there is "nothing" wrong with him. I think contacting the mental health link is a great idea. They will at least be able to help you figure out where to put your son after hospitalization.

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DISCUSSION: Let's celebrate what we love about our kids! 2008-04-12 14:18:30 2008-04-10 20:08:09

Okay -- I've been reading about a lot of problems (and dealing with some of in my own home) this week, but let's try to tell everyone one thing that is truly great about our kid(s). Maybe this is just me being a typical social worker, but sometimes I find it makes smile even in the darkest times to think of a reason why my kid is so great, despite the terrible things this illness has done to him and our family.

So, I will start. My 7 year old, Nicolas is the most emotionally intelligent, passionate and loving child I know. He's never afraid to try anything and is a really *creative* dancer.

Smiling already! So, tell me about why your child is great! :smile:

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by genejeanie - 2008-04-10 20:51:17

jeeze, where to start. Our Wee One is resilient, moral and ethical, beautiful, creative with her clothes and anime drawing, hopeful (usually), outgoing, well-mannered, good vocabulary, kinetic, stylish dancer, smart...

We hope her qualities will shine and not be destroyed by what she's experiencing. We are thankful for the "Now."

Genejeanie 47

Wee One 9 1/2 BP I/ADHD (only Geodon 100mg - cold turkey off Lamitcal yesterday)

Himself 48

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Response (2.)... by lorie - 2008-04-11 00:00:09

My 14 year old son is empathetic, polite and kind to animals, younger children and my recently widowed mother. He is also funny, hard working,intelligent, energetic, daring, perceptive and loyal. :smile:

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Response (3.)... by jistac - 2008-04-11 06:36:25

They are smart, creative, insightful, sensitive people. They are strong and determined and they are not going to let this illness get in their way. They are funny, devoted friends.

Most importantly when they are not unstable they are really great people to be around and we have the most wonderful engaging conversations with them. And I have to admit that sometimes when they are manic or hypomanic the conversations with them can also be engaging but in an entirely different way....more like a sitcom when they are like that

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Response (3.1.)... by jamison - 2008-04-11 09:33:59

These are great!

My son with bp who was also adopted, has helped me to grow so much in so many ways that I never would have imagined in my wildest dreams (pre-adoption). He's taught me and is teaching me first hand what bp is. When I see a mom with a raging child in public, I feel empathy instead of judgement. Parenting in our house is an art form, thanks to my dear son, and not just a repeat of how my husband and I were parented. I know more about bipolar, the brain, and medications that I ever needed or wanted to know. I've met some other really great parents who also have bipolar children, who have become true friends. I wouldn't have met these wonderful people if our children's bp didn't bring us together.

My son with bipolar touches everyone's heart who gets to know him: peers, friends, relatives, and teachers. He's sweet, sensitive, and fights/desires so hard to do the right thing, inspite of his disease.

Jamison

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Response (4.)... by dcttmckay - 2008-04-11 09:52:33

They are incredibly creative/artistic and have enormous imaginations. They are also very compassionate towards anyone with special needs or disabilities. I have a little sister, age 13, with Down's, and my kids treat her like there is nothing different about her. It's so precious to see the bond they have with her. My girls are also very articulate. They can talk (and talk and talk) for hours!

Cyndi

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Response (5.)... by kotocat - 2008-04-11 10:12:52

She is a sensitive child and shows empathy.

She has a very inquistive mind and wants to do well in school.

She is kind to animals.

She has the desire to do something productive with her life.

She has been taking care of her personal hygene.

She is well mannered.

She will come to accept her limitations.

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Response (6.)... by elizabeth@lindellfamily.org - 2008-04-12 05:05:00

She is...

Artistic, Creative, Caring, A Mother to all Animals, Strong, Loving, Independent, Expressive, Cautious, Inquisitive, Funny, Smart and Sensitive.

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Response (7.)... by stephanini@comcast.net - 2008-04-12 12:02:05

My son can at times be a comical mix of the Grinch and Kramer from Seinfeld. That in itself can be pretty entertaining and funny, he has a great sense of humor. He loves his cat and treats her like she's his baby. If he thinks someone is hurting he is so empathetic and over worried about them just like how he worries about something being wrong with him. He never lies or does sneaky deviant things. He has a good sense of right and wrong.

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Response (8.)... by kalee - 2008-04-12 14:18:30

I never knew if it was possible to love an adopted child as you would love your birth child until fairly recently - 3 yrs. ago. I so love my adopted 3 y/o.

He has been so intuitive for much of his short life that it's hard to remember he's not an adult!! His actions are so cute and funny, they have brought child-like laughter back into our home since our grown kiddos have flown the coop :)

Kathy

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DISCUSSION: Effects of Rages/Depression to the brain? 2008-04-06 21:37:17 2008-04-04 22:49:12

Hi All,

I may have dreamed this BUT I thought I read many times that when kids/adults have extreme rages and major depression, it causes unwanted results in the brain. Cody's pdoc just wrote me that she didn't think it would cause problems with the brain.

If any of you have concrete evidence of this or frontal lobe damage, would you please guide me to a link or report, etc.? I have checked the Reference Room but couldn't find anything - although I could have missed something.

Thanks for your help!

Kathy

Co-Mod VY3 w/Amanda, Christina & Lisa

dandkcraig@hotmail.com , Arkansas

Cody 3, DX: Mood Disorder NOS, SID

Current Meds: Melatonin 3 mg. Fish Oil 1000 mg

Therapeutic Day Program, 180 min/wk OT

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by mom2one - 2008-04-05 00:26:59

Hi,

Don't know if this will help or not, but here's a couple of links to look at.

Kindling Therory and Bipolar

Kindling Model in Bipolar

Does Bipolar get worse over time?

I'm baffled by the response of your pdoc. If I knew specifically what you said to her, I could hopefully point you in a better direction.

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Response (1.1.)... by kalee - 2008-04-05 01:12:40

Hi mom2one,

I copied the emails with some editing but hopefully you will get what I am trying to find so I can reply to her. Thanks for the great links. One of them could be very helpful! The email I first sent is at the bottom -sorry.

Hi Kathy.

Please excuse my tardy reply.

The question about rage episodes or major depression adversely affecting the brain is a tough one. Studies have shown that untreated depression and/or anger outbursts is not optimal for the body to experience. There is no known data (that I know of) that explains specifically what happens or if/how the brain is actually damaged. I do believe that treating these mood states is the best option - it just gets tricky when dealing with very young patients, like Cody. Hopefully the therapy with Darren will help in stabilizing his mood to some degree and the testing will help clarify some things regarding specific things going on in him.

Let me know how he is doing. I hope all is well.

Sincerely,

Dr Shy

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From: Kathy Craig

Hi Dr. Shy,

I have also read that every time a child has a rage or major depression, it affects the brain adversely. I would like your thoughts on this too. That is scary to me - more scary than the meds and cognitive dulling.

Thanks,

Kathy

Co-Mod VY3 w/Amanda, Christina & Lisa

dandkcraig@hotmail.com , Arkansas

Cody 3, DX: Mood Disorder NOS, SID

Current Meds: Melatonin 3 mg. Fish Oil 1000 mg

Therapeutic Day Program, 180 min/wk OT

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Response (1.2.)... by kotocat - 2008-04-06 12:23:30

Thanks for the informative links. It was so much more in depth from what I've read in books. Please keep us posted with any other informative links that are relative to issues are children face.

Appreciate you taking the time.

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Response (2.)... by martha - 2008-04-06 18:31:16

A study just published in American Journal of Psychiatry (2008 Apr 1 [Epub ahead of print]) is entitled "Toxic Effects of Depression on Brain Function: Impairment of Delayed Recall and the Cumulative Length of Depressive Disorder in a Large Sample of Depressed Outpatients." Authors are Gorwood P, Corruble E, Falissard B, Goodwin GM. The abstract begins: "An important current hypothesis suggests that the relationship between severe depression and the hippocampus is essentially toxic. " For more on this study see the <a href=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18381906?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum> Abstract on Pubmed.

The study found that the length of prior depression is associated with impairment in tests of delayed recall, "a memory function that is particularly related to hippocampal integrity in humans."

Best wishes,

Martha Hellander

The Balanced Mind Foundation Co-Founder

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Response (3.)... by kalee - 2008-04-06 21:35:41

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Response (4.)... by kalee - 2008-04-06 21:37:17

Martha - Thanks for the great info! That will really help out..

Best,

Kathy

Co-Mod VY3 w/Amanda, Christina & Lisa

dandkcraig@hotmail.com , Arkansas

Cody 3, DX: Mood Disorder NOS, SID

Current Meds: Melatonin 3 mg. Fish Oil 1000 mg

Therapeutic Day Program, 180 min/wk OT

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DISCUSSION: Great resource - take time to look at it! 2008-04-13 20:49:47 2008-04-09 09:52:12

Go to the PBS.org website and click on the "frontline" box. This has a bunch of great video clips about pediatric bipolar. Take the time to view, definitely worth it!!!!!

RESPONSES:

Response (1.)... by kotocat - 2008-04-09 10:19:52

Love the FYI links.

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Response (2.)... by conklin - 2008-04-13 18:21:12

Does anyone have a toddler who thrashes from side to side in his sleep? Maybe I should use the wording of "rocking" side to side. :smile:

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Response (3.)... by cinder730 - 2008-04-13 20:49:47

my ds now 10 used to do that as a toddler. Dr's told me it was a self soothing tech and don't interfere with it. He eventually outgrew it but even now if high anxiety can see him rock.

Cid 34 depression, chronic migraine

Greg 28 hanging on for the ride

Chris 10 bp, adhd, odd, compulsive do, seizures, IDDM

depakote, sereqouel, focolin, insulin

Olivia..........

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